'Be good and you'd get a present from santa' Anyone else feel this is wrong wrong wrong!

[tigermoth]

Over the years I admit I've have said to my son, only good children get presents from santa/me etc, but the more I think about it the worse this sentiment seems.

Do I really want my son to grow up believing that poor children are bad and rich children are good?
And the number of presents you get directly corresponds to how many brownie points you tot up? Is christmas just a reward ceremony?

And what sort of man is this santa anyway? If he's this jolly and generous chap, the spirit of christmas, would he really forget naughty children? And what sort of parent am I, that my generosity is conditional? What happened to unconditional love, that thing parents are meant to have?

I'm not saying do away with santa - I just think he's not meant to judge children.

Could you actually resist buying a particular present just because your child hadn't been good enough? I don't think I could do this. I'm all for reward systems, but isn't christmas a time to call a truce?

PS sml if you are reading this, I've a feeling this topic was touched on while back as part of anothe topic - sorry if this is going over old ground for you!

[SoupDragon]

Ah well, it was a bit of a long shot. I assume you live at the North Pole which is nowhere near Croydon at all.

[Tinker]

Agree about how much fun this type of 'lying' is. Went looking for fairies with my daughter, she sort of knew I was half serious but she loved it!

SANTA SANTA SANTA!

[aloha]

I think there's a huge difference between make-believe and lying! I think to encourage the harmless belief in a benevolent universe of genial old men with gifts and tooth fairies etc is postively good for children. And I have never, ever met or heard of anyone who genuinely felt betrayed at discovering santa wasn't real. It's usually more a gradual realisation which ends up with the children catching out the parents and feeling mightly superior. I think the fact that older, non-believing children don't instantly enlighten their younger siblings and friends shows how much they enjoyed the myth while they could. I think it's fun. I also think it's nice for children not to feel beholden to their parents for everything - Santa's gifts are a private matter!

[aloha]

I think it's on a par with 'lying' to a friend/partner to get them somewhere where there is party laid on for them, or 'lying' that you've been to the gym when you've actually been Christmas shopping for their present. ie not bad at all.

[megg]

Glad this has come up as I've been wondering what to tell my ds who will be 3 this month. At the minute he doesn't even know what Christmas is although now he's at nursery I think he'll soon find out. On the subject of traumatising kids hate to tell you but my dp is still traumatised after his sister (who is 18 months older than him) told him Santa wasn't real when he was 5. It is on his list of things never to forgive his sister for lol. Unfortunately, I'm still none the wiser over what to tell ds. Don't like the idea of Santa but don't want him to miss out on any magic. I have always preferred the idea of St Nicholas where he gives one present. I think I'll end up waiting until ds asks and then make something up on the spot which means chicken out and let him believe in Santa.

[Jane101]

Sorry everyone but I agree with WWW. I'm not entirely comfortable about the Father Christmas "lie" although I certainly wouldn't blame anyone who did tell their children he exists. I wouldn't consider them to be a liar, so I suppose that deep down I don't really consider FC to be a lie.

Anyway, I haven't got to face it this year because my son isn't yet 2. I may find that we go along with it next year after all.

I don't know anyone who's been traumatised by finding out the truth either. But the vicar in our village got in terrible trouble a couple of years ago (it made the national news) when he mentioned as an aside in a junior school assembly that Father Christmas doesn't exist. He just assumed that as the youngest children there were about 7 they would already know it isn't true. He was wrong.
Jane101 (aka Scrooge).

[Eulalia]

I am also wondering about Santa this year. I noticed ds talking about him after pre-school nursery so they are obviously discussing Christmas. However he doesn't really have a clue. The only thing he liked in the local shopping centre Christmas display was the snow. However friend's boy (same age) knows all about him. It was funny though as there was an Elvis Santa in a shop and it went off and scared him. My friend had to pretend to phone Santa and tell him not to come to the house but to leave the presents at the bottom of the garden! This seems to be cheating to me - if you are going to believe in him then do it properly!

Another mum said that this year she was pushing the message of charity but her child turned round and asked "why doesn't Santa just give the poor children toys them?" so she had to tell her that mum and dad give Santa money. That doesn't seem right somehow.

I will do Santa for my kids but in a small way. As for not having him at all - I don't know if it makes that much difference. I did believe in him as a child but we only got small stockings and knew the big presents were from family. Also I enjoyed the rest of it (the food, games etc) as much, if not more.

[aloha]

Ah, yes, but what upset him (I think) was his sister's meanness, not the 'lie' by his parents. He obviously enjoyed believing & wanted to go on believing until he naturally grew out of it but had his fun spoilt by his sister. Mind you, I think it might be time to forgive her..! I feel rather touched by the lengths my parents went to to keep the fairy-tale alive, including leaving milk and mince pies for Santa. Actually I still enjoyed the rituals long after I stopped believing & liked continuing them for my little brother.

[Jane101]

I've just come in again via the home page and seen that I've won tickets to Santa's Kingdom. Don't you think that's ironic?

[SoupDragon]

Jane101, obviously Santa's watching you and wants you to believe!

[jac34]

I don't think telling them about Santa is realy a lie, I like to think we create a magical experience for them.
I even go as far, as to put snowy foot prints by the harth. Created with the aid of a shoe stencil & a flour shacker. I do the Easter Bunny's footprints, in the garden in the same way.
The look on their faces is brilliant!!!
Alright, they are only 4 and don't question the fact that it's not snowing outside!!!
I don't think I'll carry on doing it for many more years. My step dd, already thinks it's a bit sad and she's only 8, however, she forgets that she loved it when I did it for her, when she was small.
Now, you all think I'm mad!!!!

[Crunchie]

This i s a realy interesting thread for me as I was brought up without Santa, I'm jewish, but I am trying to do a bit of both for my kids. The eldest is 3.9 so I am planning Channukkah as a candle lighting bedtime story routine. As kids we used to get one little present a day for 8 days (like a stocking I suppose). Then have Father Christmas too (hey why not confuse them!!) I am not used to doing this, but I like the idea of mince pies and carrots (we go and see Santa at the zoo and stroke the reindeer - this is their home when they aren't flying round!). Other than that I am not sure. I get really confused that if you go shopping you can see more than one Santa in a day (without going to any grotto), so which is the REAL one???? Does this ever come up??

I am planning a visit to the zoo just before Christmas to stroke the animals and see Santa, and I think I might say the others are people who are dressed up as he is too busy to see everyone at the zoo? Good or bad idea? What do you think?

[jac34]

My Mum always used to tell me that the ones in the shops were only the helpers.After all, he would be far too busy in the run up to Christmas, and he obviously, wasn't the real one, his beard was false!!!
I did have a funny experience last year though, I'd taken the ds's to Tesco to do the shopping, when they caught sight of an older gentleman, who, even I thought looked like Santa. Gray bushy hair, beard, etc...he was wearing a red rugby shirt and jeans. They both started shouting,"SANTA, SANTA". Everyone looked round, the man started to laugh, and said, that it happens all the time to him.
I was then able to say,"You see boys, even Santa has to do his own shopping".
It was funny though, because the kid in me kept thinking,it did realy look like him.

[anais]

I'm sorry, but I just can't get over the idea that it's a joke at the children's expense, and that makes me very uncomfortable.

And the whole commercialism thing is an issue for me too.

I don't think my kids are missing out. We do still do christmas, and we talk about Father Christmas, but as a story rather than something real. This way we can share multicultural versions of the myths, and not be conned by the oned that the greetings card manufacturers, etc choose to peddle. Bah Humbug maybe, but I feel its for the best.

[zebra]

I don't like the commercialisation, either... but honestly, I don't think it's a big deal either way! Just not a myth/tradition I can comfortably partcipate in. My main disappointment about finding out about Santa was the fear I wouldn't get so many prezzies, any more.

Now the Wombles... DS already believes in the Wombles! But Wombles are real, aren't they???

[jasper]

My sister sent me this.
It is a place you can buy gifts for children and families in the developing world. £10 buys four fruit trees for a family in Vietnam, £17 buys ten chickens for a family in Uganda, and there are loads more gift ideas.
My sister's daughter's class had a jumble sale to raise money to provide a herd of goats for a family in east Africa!
You get sent a gift certificate showing a picture of your gift to pass on to your chosen friend. I think it would be a great thing to do with your kids to get them excited about the idea of giving as well as receiving gifts at Christmas.

Hope noone minds me posting this here or thinks it is unbearably right on. I have nothing at all to do with this charity but it just seemed to touch a nerve with me.
alternative gifts

[willow2]

I loved believing in Santa and was devestated when I found out (three years ago) - not because I felt I'd been lied to but because some of the magic went. Lighten up everyone - kids love the idea.

[mollipops]

Definitely, I agree with soupdragon and willow2, Christmas is a magical time of fantasy. Children need fantasy, what's wrong with encouraging them to believe in FC/Santa, or faries, or any of that other stuff?

I remember pretending to believe in Santa for a long time after I found out it was all a bit of fun really...deep down I think I still wanted to hang on to that magic part of it all - in a way I still do. I love Santa's grotto at the shops and all the wonderful Xmas lights and stuff (we decorate our house with lights every year and the kids love it). Even the snow and fir trees and ridiculously Northern Hemisphere stuff that really doesn't fit here in Australia when it is 40 degrees on Xmas Day!

We also used to get one present from Santa and one from mum & dad. Once we said we didn't believe in him anymore the present from Santa stopped! (But was replaced by extra from mum I think!) I have told my 2 this year that if they are naughty (not BAD) they only get a potato from Santa. My 3 yr old thought this was hilarious! Six year old is very doubtful...I hope she will believe in the magic a bit longer. What would childhood be without Santa?

[Ciscolady]

I came across a solution to Santa/Jesus dilemma while visiting one of those wonderful American year-round Christmas shops in Arizona. They had a little nativity set and within the set was a kneeling Santa facing the baby Jesus. It was really touching and I had to take a deep breath to keep myself from bawling in the shop (in the middle of July, I might add). After that I always told my kids that Santa was a special man and that he loved Jesus too. The gifts under the tree are labeled from the usual suspects: Grandma & Grandpa, etc, but there are always a few labeled from Santa too. When I was growing up, Santa, and the idea that he actually came to our house, was so magical that I didn't want to take that special time away from my kids because we are Christians. And yes, we leave cookies & a carrot out on Christmas Eve. Our youngest is 8 and has already written a list to Santa this year (via the internet!), and we're hanging on to the magic as long as we can. Sigh, this could be her last year....

[megg]

Anais I like your idea of Christmas with making sure your children know FC is a story character but what happens when they're at school/nursery and all the other children believe in FC? Do your children tell them he's not real? Don't think I like the idea of ds being the mean one telling the others FC isn't real. He'd get a bad name like dp's sister lol. I think though I'm going to work on your idea as I like it a lot. Thanks. In my house I'm the bah humbug, I'm dreading the nativity plays, the little ones singing Away in a Manger ugh! Maybe it'll be different now its my own ds doing all that. Dp on the other hand can't wait to get the tree up and so we'll have the same row as every other year where I won't put it up until Christmas Eve and he wants it up on 1 December oh well.

[SoupDragon]

Anais, how can Santa possibly be a joke at our children's expense? Are we laughing at them? I'm certainly not laughing behind their backs thinking how stupid they are.

If that is really how you see Santa then, IMHO, you've got completely the wrong idea of how it's meant to be and are definitely right to leave it. Just make sure your children don't ruin it for Believing Children.

On the subject of "lying" to our children, DS1 (3 1/2) said in the car this morning that he could still see the moon. He laughed and asked me if the moon had forgotten to go to bed. I agreed with him that this was the case. Should I in fact have launched into a long scientific explanation of the moon, the sun and the earth's rotation? I don't see this as either lying or having a joke at his expense. The world is a fairly dull place seen through the eyes of an adult. I have to force myself to look at it through the eyes of my children sometimes so yes, I perpetuate the myth of FC, let DS1 think the moon sometimes forgets to go to bed and let him think he can fly like Buzz Lightyear by jumping from the coffee table to the sofa.

And Zebra, yes, of course Wombles are real. Otherwise there'd be more litter on Wimbledon Common. I'm just praying that the Teletubbies are really just pretend characters on TV otherwise life is not worth living...

[SoupDragon]

Megg - it probably will be different when it's your DS doing the singing and nativity plays. I was fairly ambivalent about the idea until DS1 was cast as a star in his pre-school nativity play last Christmas and when the day arrived he refused to go on. I was devastated! Can't get excited about a bunch of children I don't know doing it though.

[aloha]

Oh, I do agree with you Soupdragon. Children's worlds are an incredibly blend of fantasy and reality, and they see things totally differently from the way we adults do, and hooray for that. My friend was describing some music to her dd as they listened, and said the saxophone was an elephant calling for her mummy in the jungle, and 'listen, is that her mummy? Oh, she's found her mummy!' Her dd was entranced! Was that a 'lie at the expense of children'? It certainly wasn't an elephant calling for her mummy, neither did the composer intend it to be. Of course, you decide what you want your children to believe, but I do think calling it a 'lie at the expense of children' is rather joyless and judgemental. Did you honestly feel your own parents were sniggering at you behind your back because you believed in FC? Maybe I should stop kissing ds's rabbit goodnight because, after all, that's a big lie too, as the rabbit is an inanimate object which won't benefit from kisses and that should be made clear to him instantly (er, I think not)!

[SoupDragon]

Aloha, DS1 keeps telling me that his precious Red Ted is "just a toy" whenever I suggest she is something other than an inanimate object.

[aloha]

Well, that's you told then!