'Be good and you'd get a present from santa' Anyone else feel this is wrong wrong wrong!

[tigermoth]

Over the years I admit I've have said to my son, only good children get presents from santa/me etc, but the more I think about it the worse this sentiment seems.

Do I really want my son to grow up believing that poor children are bad and rich children are good?
And the number of presents you get directly corresponds to how many brownie points you tot up? Is christmas just a reward ceremony?

And what sort of man is this santa anyway? If he's this jolly and generous chap, the spirit of christmas, would he really forget naughty children? And what sort of parent am I, that my generosity is conditional? What happened to unconditional love, that thing parents are meant to have?

I'm not saying do away with santa - I just think he's not meant to judge children.

Could you actually resist buying a particular present just because your child hadn't been good enough? I don't think I could do this. I'm all for reward systems, but isn't christmas a time to call a truce?

PS sml if you are reading this, I've a feeling this topic was touched on while back as part of anothe topic - sorry if this is going over old ground for you!

[janh]

This thread has gone so long it is beginning to look a bit like GF mums v non GF mums and SAHM v working mums - I don't think a discussion on FC should get so heated, it's a bit like criticising other peoples' religions in a way since it's about beliefs and magic - I'm sure Tigermoth never had this in mind when she started it!

I think the anti FC (lies) brigade are more agitated than the rest - can't we all just agree to differ and go along with whatever suits our own children? None of us would even think of criticising others for being Muslim or Hindu or Jewish or Catholic or pagan - would we?

[Rhubarb]

Why don't you just tell your children the story of Saint Nicolas - the true Father Christmas? And tell them that some children believe he still comes down the chimney at night - or is that too scary? Actually I'm surprised that kids don't get absolutely terrified at the thought of this bearded stranger popping down the chimney at the dead of night and then entering your room with a big sack.

I do think some parents can go overboard, like mine did, which makes it harder when you finally have to tell them the truth, whatever that may be. Anyway, I'm off to tell my dd all about Peter Pan, much more interesting!

[Enid]

blimey.

[aloha]

What about saying 'oh, look, teddy thinks that's very funny'. Is that a lie? presumably. For XXX's sake..

[hmb]

Dd thinks that Father Christmas comes down the chimney, and she isn't in the slightest bit scared by it. She is talking about it almost every day, and is looking forward to it

The comments that people have made regarding a childs ability to think that FC is 'real' even though they understand that he is not is not a surprise to me. Dd has a toy bear that we talk about as if he is alive. She acts this out even tho' she can see that I am 'doing the voices' for the bear. It think that a child's need to 'believe' in the supernatural is very deep seated. If not, then why are tales of faries, ghosts, witches, mythical beasts found in almost every culture (if not all)? It strikes me that this is a similar thing to reading children scary stories, they need to learn how to deal with fear in a safe environment, they need to learn how to deal with disapointment in a loving environment, they need to learn the difference between reality and myth. Or this could be the second glass of wine talking ;-)

[janh]

hmb, did you happen to see the Biography Channel programme on Sesame Street? It featured (among others) the chap who animates and voices Elmo...a small child came into the studio and spoke to Elmo, and the bloke who "does" him had the Elmo puppet on his arm and was doing the voice, but the child was just talking to "Elmo" as if he wasn't there...they do have an amazing ability to focus on what they want to see.

The daughter of the man who does Elmo also talks to Elmo as if her father had nothing to do with him. It's quite enchanting to see the way small children suspend disbelief.

[Tinker]

I lied to my daughter tonight. I pinched some of her sweets whilst she was eating her dinner and when she asked me what I had in my mouth I said 'medicine'

Lies can be very good for mummies!

[willow2]

I've found that shouting "squirrel" while pointing away from whatever it is that I want to steal works wonders too.

Re FC - while saddened to discover that he was my mum dressed up in a cloak, I really enjoyed being part of the secret and keeping the myth alive for my younger siblings. In turn so did they - all except the youngest one who still hasn't a clue as she's only 23.

I don't think I know anyone who didn't believe in FC as a child - other than those from different religious backgrounds. As a child all of my friends believed in him - although the age that we "stopped believing" differed greatly and was the cause of several playground heated debates. Which basically involved me telling everyone else that they were fibbers... as I was the grand old age of ten before it dawned on me.

[robinw]

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[tigermoth]

Wow, this thread has spun itself into a fairisle (sp) jumper!

I still want to perpetuate the myth of fc as long as my son wants me to. Even though his 9th birthday is approaching, there's still no sign of him wanting it to end.

However I agree with all those who say it's not a myth to embroider - I think it's best keep loose and vague, as in FC is the spirit of christmas, rather than 'he wants three mince pies on a plate, otherwise he will not fill up your stocking'.

It's santa's job to help introduce children to the idea of the joy of giving, as far as I'm concerned. The joy of receiving a full stocking from a mysterious stranger eads to the joy of giving to those you do not know. That's why I am so against the sentiment be good, be deserving, and you'll get a present.

If santa can stop my children seeing christmas as a mere food, tv and pressie fest he is fine by me. It's the judgemental and commercialised aspects of santa I object to.

[tigermoth]

re lieing to children. Small lies are IMO close to distraction techniques ie ways of diffusing bad situations. I will use small lies to add magic and keep the peace. Personally I find breaking a promise I make to my children far more upsetting.

[aloha]

I'd never use Santa as a threat (no presents for you), and even though we were pretty hard up when I was a kid, I never saw presents or lack of them as bad kid/good kid thing at all. Maybe I was just dense. Mind you, my fave thing was the box of chocolates that I'd eat while going through my other presents. Mmm, a whole box of chocs at 5am.... how sick would I be now. Also, I think by the time they actually ask you, is FC real, they have worked it out and you can gently tell them the truth. ie it was a lovely thing we did to make you happy and we enjoyed it too. I always loved reading The Night Before Christmas on Xmas Eve, going to midnight mass and leaving a mince pie for F/C - aahh. Actually I still like Carol Services and as you may know, I'm not remotely religious. Maybe God is my Santa!

[tigermoth]

so do you have to go to midnight mass in order for santa to pay you a visit

[robinw]

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[Croppy]

SMl, why do you think its "funny" to hear people defending the magic that FC brings into their children's lives? Whether or not your children get this from other aspects of their lives doesn't change the fact that many many children (and for that matter parents) get huge amounts of pleasure and enjoyment from FC. Also would be interested to hear you address Aloha et al's comments on lying i.e whether its acceptable to say a teddy bear is finding something amusing for example? Would you tell a child that they've done a good job of cdrawing something or whatever when in reality it's a mess?

[SoupDragon]

Rhubarb, the only thing my niece found scarey was that if FC could get in through the letterbox (they had no chimney!) so could the Big Bad Wolf. We told her that FC was magic so only he could fit through.

I think the word "fib" is more appropriate for the things we say to children "An insignificant or childish lie." We are fibbing when we say putting TCP on their scrapes won't hurt, we fib when we say the batteries in that noisey, irritating toy we hate have run out when really we've taken them out and jumped on the toy, we fib when we hedge round the question "how did the bay get into your tummy, mummy?" when it's asked by a 3 year old...

Anyway, I've got to sit down and work out which cookies we're going to bake for DS1 & 2 to leave out for "Santa". Mmmmm.... and I think he likes Baileys in our house too.

[SoupDragon]

Oh Croppy - I meant to make the point about children drawings in my post (typing at the same time). I've often looked at a scribble of lines and thought "What the is that?" whilst congratulating DS1 on his artistic abilities. He does get congratulated more if it's genuinely good though.

[Marina]

Hmb, you are so right about fairy tales and mythology having a crucial role to play in child development. They do provide a "safe zone" in which a child can examine and come to terms with danger, loneliness and loss without necessarily living the experience yet themselves.
This book makes for interesting reading:
The Uses of Enchantment
Like Tigermoth and others, we speak about Father Christmas to ds but probably would not do the mince pies and icing sugar routine. Mainly because by Christmas Eve I doubt I will have the energy left...

[aloha]

Sheesh, it's like having a stalker. I think it's time to leave this thread.

[jasper]

Hee hee Aloha, stay put and defend our childrens' right to enjoy Santa!
You and Bundle always make me laugh.

[Lil]

sml, I remember this discussion last year and you were the only one on the defensive. This year you certainly have more allies! Now my child is 3yrs I am suddenly stuck what to do. I am not religious and am actually quite anti-religion, and so the point made by sml last year sticks in my head...she said (roughly) isn't teaching about baby Jesus as much a myth as Father Christmas? Since I could never bring myself to tell my children there's a God up there who will reward him if he's good and send him to hell if he's bad, isn't FC he same.

Thoughts anyone???

[password]

my kids see and help with the wrapping of the presents for other people and still havent clicked. they know how much money we can afford for their presents and so they can budget accordingly ( looking through catalogues getting the best for their money etc) and they still havent clicked, we told them that xmas toys which come from santa have to have magic to work ( no one has asked why santa delivers socks then , cos they dont need magic to work!), we told them that tinkerbell gives santa his magic so he can get through the chimney/ gas fire! they saw their dad riding ds's bike on xmas eve from his brothers house accross the road at some ungodly hour waiting up for santa ( he was drunk at the time!) and we told them santa delivered it to the wrong address cos we have the same surname! they didnt click my son is thirteen and said two weeks ago he doesnt believe in santa anymore, i said fine but dont spoil it for the younger children or santa make believe or not wont leave any pressies! and i dont see why i cant use it as an incentive for my kids to be better behaved, go to bed early or whatever. and do you know what everyone.......i'm a good mum if i do say so myself

[sml]

Re lying to children: I can't think of a situation where I'd be happy give my endorsement to something that isn't true, though I suppose one might exist. If you congratulate your child on a messy drawing, you're not judging them next to Leonardo da Vinci (though they might do rather well compared to some modern artists!). You're saying that's good for their own particular age, experience, effort put in and ability. So obviously, there are practically no situations where it would be a lie to say "Well done" to a small child for a drawing.

The other great area for lying is of course, How Do Babies Get Inside Mummys Tummy? We had this one from our son aged 4 a few weeks ago, it was hilarious, and he understood perfectly well from our funny stories that we weren't going to tell him the truth. I think it would have given him a far more negative message if he found out later that we'd led him up the garden path, especially if he'd carried on believing it and looked silly in front of his friends at school.

Soupdragon,
surely there really isn't any connection between father chrismas and religions unless you throw all regard for truth out of the window. Re your comments on magic, my children have plenty, I can assure you. However, they know the boundary between fantasy and reality, and they can rely on their parents to be firmly on the side of reality. What is particularly hurtful from the Father Christmas believers is the assumption that (a) one is depriving a child if they don't have FC, and which I can categorically say from seeing my children's enjoyment of Christmas is simply not true, and (b) the suggestion that my children are more likely than any others to go around telling others that Father Christmas doesn't exist (when they are hardly even aware of him!), and that if they do, then I and my children will somehow be to blame for spoiling your child's enjoyment of Christmas!

[SoupDragon]

SML So, you lied to your son about how babies are made? Doesn't matter whether he believed you or not, you've lied to him and not respected him enough to tell him the truth.

If you tell a child that their scribble on the paper that they say is daddy is really good, you are lying. Sometimes my son produces truly amazing pictures which are really good for his age. Sometimes he produces a load of scribble which bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the subject. I always tell him they're fantastic. Obviously when this description is attached to the load of scribble, it's a lie. And you all know that in my mind, I don't see them as lies at all, just fibs.

I didn't really say that your children are more likely than some others to go around telling others that Father Christmas doesn't exist - of course they are simply because of the fact that a lot of other chidren believe so therefore wouldn't be telling children that he doesn't. My point was that ANY child who does not believe whether because they never have or because they've realised it's a myth should be told by their parents to respect the beliefs of other children and not let on. It's a simple way of introducing them to the idea of tolerance and understanding for other people's beliefs which can be directly linked to the idea of different religeous beliefs, which is the point I was trying to make.

I'm not going to bother going into my religeon/FC analogy any more as if you can't see what I mean, I can't explain it further. I know what I mean but can't quite put it into words

In fact, I'm not going to visit this particular thread any more but am going to skip off jingling sleighbells to look for my red and white furry hat. It's been an interesting debate. Who'd have thought FC could rival those other great abbreviations MMR and GF...

Peace and goodwill to everyone!

[WideWebWitch]

lil, well, if you're not comfortable with religion as you don't believe in it maybe you won't be comfortable with FC - the concept of FC is rooted in Christianity. But maybe you will since it is clearly (from this thread alone) a hard thing to decide not to do since it lays you open to lots of accusations from people determined to preserve the myth. It's up to you.

I completely think each to their own about FC, and don't want to slag off anyone who does tell the story but Sml, I still agree with you. Except about babies, I told the truth about that one as soon as I was asked (in an easy to understand child way).

I think there's a huge difference between telling a lie, for example because you're arranging a birthday surprise for someone, and telling the FC story. If you are arranging a birthday surprise for someone you may well ask a child to not tell i.e lie by omission (or maybe to tell a lie) but it is usually shortlived, temporary, explicable. With the FC story you are going to a big effort - mince pies, notes, etc etc - to tell a big, long lasting, untrue (since no-one seems to like the word lie, but hey, let's not get hung up on semantics) story which you intend to perpetuate for years and years.

There's a big difference IMO between indulging a fantasy from a child's own head a la, yes, your teddy is eating that porridge nicely, and participating in a countrywide untruth (blimey) about a man who supposedly delivers presents. Just because you don't buy into this particular, very commercially convenient fantasy/story doesn't mean you are denying the existence of a child's imagination. Neither are you denying them magic, fun and a nice Christmas, if you celebrate it.