'Be good and you'd get a present from santa' Anyone else feel this is wrong wrong wrong!

[tigermoth]

Over the years I admit I've have said to my son, only good children get presents from santa/me etc, but the more I think about it the worse this sentiment seems.

Do I really want my son to grow up believing that poor children are bad and rich children are good?
And the number of presents you get directly corresponds to how many brownie points you tot up? Is christmas just a reward ceremony?

And what sort of man is this santa anyway? If he's this jolly and generous chap, the spirit of christmas, would he really forget naughty children? And what sort of parent am I, that my generosity is conditional? What happened to unconditional love, that thing parents are meant to have?

I'm not saying do away with santa - I just think he's not meant to judge children.

Could you actually resist buying a particular present just because your child hadn't been good enough? I don't think I could do this. I'm all for reward systems, but isn't christmas a time to call a truce?

PS sml if you are reading this, I've a feeling this topic was touched on while back as part of anothe topic - sorry if this is going over old ground for you!

[Lindy]

I love these 'long' threads, they are so interesting, so many diverse points of view, I hate threads that seem to start of interesting & then disappear (usually when I've made a comment!).

I love FC and will certainly help to perpetuate the myth (which IMO is not a myth, based on St Nicoholas), along with the 'real' reasons for Christmas.

I am genuinely interested in knowing why those of you who don't believe in Christianity, still wish to celebrate Christmas?

[hmb]

Lindy,

Possibly because the secular world has assimulated those parts of christmas that it wants, and left the rest? Rather like the early church assimulated the pre-christian traditions and changed them to their liking. I'm not trying to be contentious, but it seems to me that it is a very similar trend. Just because people are non-religious, it doesn't mean that they want to live in a world without tradition. they just don't have to have a religious 'core'.

[Lindy]

hmb - thank you for your comments; I too absolutely do not wish to be contentious but surely celebrating Christmas is about celebrating Christ's birth - FC, presents, turkey, booze etc are just on the periphery - there are wonderful aspects about other religion's celebrations but, as a Christian, I would not wish to 'assume' to celebrate those.

It always amuses me when non-religious friends send the most religious Christmas cards, or perhaps they have chosen them specially for me?

[bossykate]

lindy, as snugs might say, why do all you christians persist in celebrating the pagan midwinter festival!

snugs, if you are reading this, hope i haven't misrepresented you!

[hmb]

I see your point, and I agree that your celibration of Christmas is quite different from that of a non-christian. However the mid winter celibration pre-dates the birth of Christ, so can Christianity lay 100% claim to it? And can anyone be sure that Dec 25 is 'the day', and what does it matter? If believers worship in the way they see fit, why does it matter if anyone else does thing differently?

[Lindy]

Bossygate - yes, good point, I guess there will never be a real agreement BUT ........ & this is completely going off the original thread, it does bug me when people get so het up over Christmas, saying it is 'over commercialised' - surely that is only if you chose to see the commercial side of it & insist on spending too much money on too many presents,too many parties, too much booze (I am guilty of that one) blah blah blah!!!

[hmb]

I think that you can have a non-commercial aspect of Xmas, as well as Christmas. Getting together with family and friends is a big part of Christmas for me, and that has nothing to do with gifts or religion.

[Rhubarb]

Bossykate - we nicked the Pagan festival! Originally the early Christians didn't know when Jesus was born, but knew it was in the winter time. As the Pagan festival of light was celebrated on Dec 25th, and Jesus was seen as 'the light of the world' they decided to hijack their festival. The thought was that if they turned a Pagan festival into a Christian one, this would undermine the Pagans.

I think Jesus was actually born sometime in January. Anyway, as far as myths go, Jesus is a real person (or was depending on how you look at it), he is a historical fact. But then so is Father Christmas in Saint Nicholas. It's just that for some people, FC is more important than JC, which I think is sad as I believe in JC, but I'm not going to force my beliefs onto anyone - yet!!!! I do find it a tad uncomfortable that FC seems to centre around presents and materialism, it's as if Christmas these days was invented for FC, which it wasn't. It's an imported tradition. Christmas should be about families getting together, having arguments about whose parents to spend Christmas with, burning the turkey, drinking far too much wine and storming out. Where have all your values gone?

[willow2]

Lil - think the fundamental difference between God and FC is that the last time I looked nobody had ever started a war based on the premise that their version of FC was better than somebody else's. (well, until now that is...)

[Rhubarb]

Willow, wars have been started because people think they are a better colour than others, a better gender, better educated, a better social class, have a better accent, live in a better country, etc, etc. Don't blame God for mankind's problems - blame mankind!

[SimonHoward]

SoupDragon

Bambi was for last Xmas dinner so i can't have him again.

Megg

My neices refer to me as 'Evil' with the capital E after asking them if they were that short of food at home when they told me they were off to buy a puppy, so tell my DD that FC isn't real is not a problem [insert maniacal laugh here and picture of me putting my little finger in the side of my mouth].

Tinker

Who's been spreading these malicious lies about me being a big softy? [Note to self hide teddy next time mother comes round].

[willow2]

Ah yes Rhubarb.... but never over Father Christmas!

[Clarinet60]

Phew, what a thread! Whatever next!

[willow2]

Just to clarify things (before it kicks off) I wasn't blaming God - I was blaming people who wage war in the name of God and making the point that nobody's done it in the name of Santa. It was supposed to be a joke - you know, those funny things that make you laugh? So please, no irate responses! (smiley face... just can't be arsed to do the link)

[ScummyMummy]

Never over father christmas? And there was me thinking I'd just stumbled into World War 3

[Snugs]

Gosh, spend a few days away from mumsnet and come back to find paganism has crept in without me

Bossykate - thanks for that one . Christians nicked both the midwinter festival and Yule actually - and FC was ours first as well in his original pre-Coca Cola green clothes.

[Snugs]

oh and for those real FC haters out there - have you considered that Santa is an anagram of a certain little devil

[jasper]

Sleigh bells ring, are you listening..............

[hmb]

Granted I am on dodgy ground here, and with lots of smilies around, deep breath and ask the question....... How much historical evidence is there for the birth of Christ? Other than the gospels, and Heroditus (which were all written much after the event).Please note that I am not saying that anyone is wrong to believe that Christ existed butI was under the impression that historical proof was very thin on the ground. And the church has always stressed the need for faith rather than proof (Thomas and all that)

[robinw]

message withdrawn

[karenanne]

actually yule(pagan festival)is celebrated on the winter solstice which is either 21st/22nd december,but it is true the christian church stole this when they fought against paganism.i'm a practising pagan,who when my dd is at school will have no problem with her learning about the nativity,dwali etc.i also activley encourage father christmas shes getting so excited this year as its her first xmas she really understands(2 and a half).i will teach her about yule and the story of father christmas.all children need magic in their lives for as long as possible...its when they lose the magic that they lose their childhood,and i intend to make that magic as great as i can and to last as long as possible.

[Snugs]

karenanne - merry meet. So glad to hear from another pagan on mumsnet, I sometimes feel a bit of a loner.

I agree on the learning front - I dont object to ds learning about the nativity etc at school, (although I do admit to ducking the issue sometimes if he questions me too deeply). He announced last night that he is to be Joseph in the Christmas concert so I guess the nativity might be a regular topic of conversation for a while.

[Bozza]

Lindy I think your friends might be selecting the religious card out of a pack as being particularly appropriate for you!

I'm surprised at the strong feelings on FC shown on this thread. Definitely am a pro-FC and am surprised that so many are not. V. interesting reading though.

[karenanne]

snugs-merry meet ...its nice to know there is a few of us around!

[sml]

snugs - I am interested to know what do you mean by pre-coca cola father christmas?

Lindy, your comment on Xmas cards reminds me of when I was a child, my mother (not religious) would get a box of assorted cards, there would always be a couple of religious ones, so guess who got them every year!

Soupdragon, not a lie. At the end of the talk, my son wasn't left believing in something that doesn't exist. He knew we didn't intend to tell him the truth - and judging from the extremely determined expression on his face, he means to find out himself by hook or by crook...