White passing children

[Nc4post99]

My children are mixed race, south Asian and white. Father asian (Muslim) and myself white European. Our children are very very fair, think mac nc 10. They visibly look very different to DH side of the family and to anyone passing them on the street they’d be considered white.

I’m not close to DH family as they don’t really think too fondly of me due to my ethnic background. There is a very much a pulling in both directions from both sides of our family to be 100% one way or the other- they are, we all are in fact VvLC with both sides of the family for these reasons.

I’ve tried chatting to DH about it but he’s just a bumble through sort of guy and doesn’t think he’s experienced racism so thinks it’s NBD, but obviously being white passing gives a certain amount of privilege.

I’ve googled and not found any resources to help my children understand the complexities of their identity. Does anyone have an recommendations?

Interesting question, I’m in a similar situation (more for DS than DD). Not aware of any resources. I guess it’s just good to be open and discuss it and be curious with them?

Not sure what your question is - you want resources to show your children their heritage? Or that duel heritage is a thing?

If they are white passing then what would they need help with? Being white, or appearing so, is unproblematic. They will move through the world with ease.
Is your concern how they identify because that’s very much up to them.

Im mixed raced but not white passing and any problems I have ever faced have been about the half of me that isn’t white.

It’s not so much about identity although that does for part of it I suppose but specifically any resources around privilege for white passing children, ive googled and can’t really find any.
Worth saying they both have v Muslim and Asian sounding names so I doubt they will have total white privilege

No advice but I saw this earlier this week and I think it might help your husband see what you're trying to say/are worried about.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00165cc

I had no idea white passing was an issue to someone mixed race but this documentary made me really emotional.

www.spotlight.com/news-and-advice/tips-and-advice/changing-how-we-think-about-mixed-heritage-casting/

I think lack of resources will stem from lack of need. I have white passing friend and family and they really don’t assistance with being treated well. Sorry to sound sarcastic but racism isn’t a problem for white people or anyone who presents as such. Their names may induce Islamophobia but that’s different.

I have privileges because of my lighter skin, hair texture etc but this is a lived experience that I am aware of all of the time. I really don’t need any tools to help me better understand how palatable I am.

@Daydreamsinsantafe

I think lack of resources will stem from lack of need. I have white passing friend and family and they really don’t assistance with being treated well. Sorry to sound sarcastic but racism isn’t a problem for white people or anyone who presents as such. Their names may induce Islamophobia but that’s different.

I have privileges because of my lighter skin, hair texture etc but this is a lived experience that I am aware of all of the time. I really don’t need any tools to help me better understand how palatable I am.

Completely agree racism isn’t an issue for white people, but politically my kids aren’t white. They are marked by very ‘non white’ names

You might not need tools to understand how being fair makes you more palatable but I was thinking perhaps a child might? In terms of privilege and the reality of their identity.

Also I truly believe islamaphobia is racism, it’s rooted in the fear of this ‘foreign’ religion and often the’ big scary brown man’ and the ‘downtrodden Muslim woman’ you see constantly in the media.

@dottypencilcase

No advice but I saw this earlier this week and I think it might help your husband see what you're trying to say/are worried about.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00165cc

I had no idea white passing was an issue to someone mixed race but this documentary made me really emotional.

This is fab thank you!

My kids are the same. Somehow my son has blonde hair and blue eyes which was completely unexpected! They also have Muslim names, although not your traditional ones, I think they just sound original and wouldn’t immediately be obvious.

I think I sort of understand where you’re coming from, it’s a confusing one. I expected them to be more obviously Muslim, but instead I now worry about them identifying with that side of themselves when they so easily fall into a different bucket. For example I notice at nursery he’s friends with all the little blonde kids!
There is a book called “Third Culture Kids” that I’ve been meaning to read, but I’ve not got round to it yet

You might not need tools to understand how being fair makes you more palatable but I was thinking perhaps a child might? In terms of privilege and the reality of their identity.

Really? Or maybe you can just let them be kids & discuss any issues of racism as they come up?

@Nc4post99 I have been a child have I not? Your children just aren’t going to face racism & that’s that. Lucky them. The conversations I have had to have with my children about racism are difficult but it’s a sad reality for them so unavoidable. If I had a while passing child I wouldn’t say a thing and deal with the very unlikely issue as it arose.

Identity is not the same. You weren’t asking how they might know their culture but how you can prepare them for the racism they’ll never face because they appear white.

Also, I know many half Asian children who are white passing. It’s quite common. My nephew being one but he is fully immersed in Pakistani culture so he identifies as such & that’s how he’s perceived. Really, only your husband can deal with that side of things.

Also, Race is a social construct. Saying they are ‘politically not white’ is a mistruth. They are both how they identify and how they are perceived and their lives will pan out accordingly.
Saying to young children “you look white & are treated as such but really you aren’t” is, to my mind, unnecessary & more problematic than dealing with one or two comments about their names at some unforeseen point.

All children have issues over 'who they are' and those from a mixed background no doubt more so. Realise that how they do this change and develop over time. In my case [with four White heritages, so no doubt rather different] I found my father tried unsuccessfully to imprint more of his background onto me than he had time or resources to succeed with, and my mother seemed to ignore hers for a couple of decades. The key was grandmothers who helped give me information and perspective, though they did like to tell me what I was 'not really'.

Really, only your husband can deal with that side of things

He says he doesn’t know how but wants to but the kids have limited involvement with that side of the family, unlike your nephew, hence my asking.

Of course race is a social construct, but on the political point, when I was at uni, the undergrad I studied featured post colonialism and critical race theory and there were quite a few lectures and talks that featured on the white passing thing from an academic point of view, a decade before I had children of course, but it seemed pertinent.

I also never said my children will experience racism based on how they look, they won’t, because they look white, their dad however doesn’t. Even though he thinks he’s not really experienced racism there have been incidents where I’ve been with him where he’s been called slurs or the one pulled over and searched ‘randomly’ in the air port.

Think PPs suggestion of third culture kids sounds like a good book for DH and I to read.

@SpringHasSprungYay

You might not need tools to understand how being fair makes you more palatable but I was thinking perhaps a child might? In terms of privilege and the reality of their identity.

Really? Or maybe you can just let them be kids & discuss any issues of racism as they come up?

That’s just not really how I’m going to chose to parent.

Children, in my opinion should learn about lgbtq from a young age in the sense of different families, different faiths, racism, anatomically correct body parts etc

I kind of understand (I think) where you’re coming from. I am mixed white and Asian. People mostly assume I’m white.

The “problems” I’ve encountered are insignificant compared to actual racism but they still exist.

People have been racist about Asians in front of me. (Casual use of ‘p’ word and jokes about terrorists). When I’ve challenged them, the attitude is what’s it got to do with you. One time I explained I was Asian and the response was literally “no you’re not”.
Confrontation (both times with men) is really horrible and left me feeling really shaken and upset. Obviously I know this is nothing compared to experiencing racism yourself - I’m just giving my experience.

The other thing is unwanted curiosity about my Asian surname. E.g. oh that’s an interesting surname, where’s it from. The latest was when I was giving blood, completely irrelevant to the appointment… I don’t want to discuss my family background with everyone - it’s none of their business. It makes me feeling like people are constantly questioning my identity.

Yes @EllaBlaire this is exactly it, my 3 yr old gets that now with her name, people always mid pronounce it and she ends up correcting them. My mother even does it because she has an ‘aversion’ to her name.

@Daydreamsinsantafe

Racism can be a problem for any ethnic group. If the colour of your skin is used to decide on an opportunity then you have experienced racism - it happens a lot more than you would think. Where I used to live if you didn't have an Asian name you could have your application put in the discard pile, even if spoke the applicable languages, was told this to my face more than once.

Of course your DH has experienced racism but he likely, like must of us, just doesn’t have the energy to make any more of it than he has to. Living with racism is exhausting. It’s a trauma response to tuck it away and lessen its impact. It would just be impossible to function if we lived with a constant sense of impending doom.
My DH is also southern Asian and he’s been held in customs before after random stops at airports. After it’s over we don’t even mention it. Neither of us can be bothered. It is what it is.
I don’t know him so I’m taking a wild guess but do you think he isn’t bothered by any of this because he knows it’s just not going to happen. You are coming to this ‘issue’ energised after decades of never having to deal with it.

My children had their first dealings of othering in preschool and then so began our discussions. I wouldn’t have burst their naive bubble a second earlier than necessary. Perhaps you should wait until something happens?

Your racist family is an altogether separate issue. Cut them off. You toleration veiled or direct racism will have far more impact than anything else they are likely to face.

@Daydreamsinsantafe

Of course your DH has experienced racism but he likely, like must of us, just doesn’t have the energy to make any more of it than he has to. Living with racism is exhausting. It’s a trauma response to tuck it away and lessen its impact. It would just be impossible to function if we lived with a constant sense of impending doom. My DH is also southern Asian and he’s been held in customs before after random stops at airports. After it’s over we don’t even mention it. Neither of us can be bothered. It is what it is. I don’t know him so I’m taking a wild guess but do you think he isn’t bothered by any of this because he knows it’s just not going to happen. You are coming to this ‘issue’ energised after decades of never having to deal with it.

My children had their first dealings of othering in preschool and then so began our discussions. I wouldn’t have burst their naive bubble a second earlier than necessary. Perhaps you should wait until something happens?

Your racist family is an altogether separate issue. Cut them off. You toleration veiled or direct racism will have far more impact than anything else they are likely to face.

No he thinks it probably will happen but in less explicit ways than being called the P word in the street.

Additionally you have 0 knowledge of my family background, so don’t say I’m tolerating racism, ive already said we are both v v v LC with both families because of this. I was using it as an example of that othering they have/ will face.

Hi,

@Daydreamsinsantafe
@Nc4post99

White mum of mixed asian/White, Muslim kids.

I've nothing to offer in terms of resources. That documentary was great. I will look at the book too.

You didn't ask about racism, you asked about the complexities of identity. If we only look at Race, we will miss some of the problems here. We need to zoom out to intersectionality, to dominant/subordinate cultures, to othering, and to think about how things are experienced in specific contexts.

My kids have experienced identity crises since pre school, despite being White passing. The overwhelming cultural dominance of Halloween and Christmas through the term from November to January is always experienced as challenging.

We don't do Halloween because we don't want to celebrate evil spirits, and in any case the sweets are always non veggie, non halal, so the kids can't eat them anyway. Try taking your kid out to collect a load of sweets only to say they then can't eat most of them. I'm not doing that to my kid. And then Christmas, whipped up into a frenzy of excitement at school but not experienced at home. We don't do Santa, and from age 3 I was teaching my kids not to "spoil the game" for the other kids at school, managing down the expectations built in school (i know your teacher said Santa is coming but he really isn't. It doesn't mean you have been naughty). The othered experience, despite being White passing, hit hard and strong. And then doing that in a largely non-Muslim area is a very alienating experience for the kids. But equally I'm not going to give in to feeling forced to celebrate something I think I shouldn't. So the kids have to suck it up, learning from age 3 that this is what it is like to be out of place in your homeland.

I have always sought Muslim role models for my kids, and Muslim friends of many cultural backgrounds. Peers, community, and reinforcing and exploring identity. I set up a Mum's group specifically to facilitate this, and this was brilliant for exploring these questions, and the dilemmas experienced, both for me and the kids. For them to hear us discussing these issues between ourselves, to see others going through the same things, and finding both the same and different answers. I don't do Christmas. Others of my Muslim friends do. You find your way and live according to your conscience, I'll find mine.

Our area has gradually got more mixed. My kids, unprompted, list who in their class was Muslim (2 or 3) and who wasn't. The school was supportive and invited me in to talk about Eid, so my kids could feel proud of their culture too, after i explained how hard my kids experienced the Christmas season. It was a massive turning point when they hired a visibly Muslim teacher (headscarf wearing). The Islamophobia is so real, so present. I overhead the father of a friend of my daughter's (the child is mixed Japanese/English) say in the playground of this teacher, "she might be one of those, but she's just such a good teacher, she really gets the kids.

And I've also had my kids worried because they are not brown enough to be Muslim.(Let me Google and introduce you to these Bosnian Muslims...). But still having the experience that they don't fit in anywhere.

I don't have resources for you, but my experience is that the lack of resources do not reflect a lack of problems. Let me validate that these identity complexities are real. That our kids are struggling with this their whole lives, from pre school. That feeling seen and included and accepted, one way or another or in many ways, can be a massive challenge even if you are White passing. It is not only Race.

I do think though, that recognising, talking through and naming these complexities as they arise is a massive part of supporting them to work through it.

I'd love feedback from either of you, this has been a really stimulating, thought provoking thread for me. Looking forward to hearing of any further resources also.

Also, I take the reminder from the hadith

Sahih al-Bukhari 6416

That we should live as strangers in this world. These experiences only serve to remind us of that. This world is not our home.

@Starface

Hi,

@Daydreamsinsantafe
@Nc4post99

White mum of mixed asian/White, Muslim kids.

I've nothing to offer in terms of resources. That documentary was great. I will look at the book too.

You didn't ask about racism, you asked about the complexities of identity. If we only look at Race, we will miss some of the problems here. We need to zoom out to intersectionality, to dominant/subordinate cultures, to othering, and to think about how things are experienced in specific contexts.

My kids have experienced identity crises since pre school, despite being White passing. The overwhelming cultural dominance of Halloween and Christmas through the term from November to January is always experienced as challenging.

We don't do Halloween because we don't want to celebrate evil spirits, and in any case the sweets are always non veggie, non halal, so the kids can't eat them anyway. Try taking your kid out to collect a load of sweets only to say they then can't eat most of them. I'm not doing that to my kid. And then Christmas, whipped up into a frenzy of excitement at school but not experienced at home. We don't do Santa, and from age 3 I was teaching my kids not to "spoil the game" for the other kids at school, managing down the expectations built in school (i know your teacher said Santa is coming but he really isn't. It doesn't mean you have been naughty). The othered experience, despite being White passing, hit hard and strong. And then doing that in a largely non-Muslim area is a very alienating experience for the kids. But equally I'm not going to give in to feeling forced to celebrate something I think I shouldn't. So the kids have to suck it up, learning from age 3 that this is what it is like to be out of place in your homeland.

I have always sought Muslim role models for my kids, and Muslim friends of many cultural backgrounds. Peers, community, and reinforcing and exploring identity. I set up a Mum's group specifically to facilitate this, and this was brilliant for exploring these questions, and the dilemmas experienced, both for me and the kids. For them to hear us discussing these issues between ourselves, to see others going through the same things, and finding both the same and different answers. I don't do Christmas. Others of my Muslim friends do. You find your way and live according to your conscience, I'll find mine.

Our area has gradually got more mixed. My kids, unprompted, list who in their class was Muslim (2 or 3) and who wasn't. The school was supportive and invited me in to talk about Eid, so my kids could feel proud of their culture too, after i explained how hard my kids experienced the Christmas season. It was a massive turning point when they hired a visibly Muslim teacher (headscarf wearing). The Islamophobia is so real, so present. I overhead the father of a friend of my daughter's (the child is mixed Japanese/English) say in the playground of this teacher, "she might be one of those, but she's just such a good teacher, she really gets the kids.

And I've also had my kids worried because they are not brown enough to be Muslim.(Let me Google and introduce you to these Bosnian Muslims...). But still having the experience that they don't fit in anywhere.

I don't have resources for you, but my experience is that the lack of resources do not reflect a lack of problems. Let me validate that these identity complexities are real. That our kids are struggling with this their whole lives, from pre school. That feeling seen and included and accepted, one way or another or in many ways, can be a massive challenge even if you are White passing. It is not only Race.

I do think though, that recognising, talking through and naming these complexities as they arise is a massive part of supporting them to work through it.

I'd love feedback from either of you, this has been a really stimulating, thought provoking thread for me. Looking forward to hearing of any further resources also.

Yes this is exactly it!

We’ve got it coming up with Easter and the Easter bonnet parade at her preschool. The fine balance between her not being left out and also staying true to her Muslim identity. It’s tough!

I’ll definitely watch that documentary.

The not brown enough to be Muslim is a very prevalent attitude with my husbands side of the family

I have similar OP. DS is fair, blue eyed and light brown hair but is 1/4 black. The grandparent who is black
Is deceased and I find it hard to know how to celebrate his heritage without FIL here to lead it.

DS was very ill as a baby and I kept having to explain his background as some things are more prevalent in some of our backgrounds.

People don’t always believe DH is his biological father which is hard.