ADHD DS12 shot child on school bus with BB gun - police involvement

[SphincterSaysWhat]

Hello, I am hoping for some thoughts from anyone who has been in a situation like this before - or knows someone who has.

My recently diagnosed as ADHD DS12 bought a BB gun from a friend at school, used it in school and on the bus - the pellet actually hit someone on the bus. I don't know yet whether he was trying to hit the other child with the pellet or whether it was an 'accident' (I am aware he should ever have got that gun out on this bus or in school etc).

He has been suspended, and the policy are involved - the school says the police will likely make a MARF which I've googled and can see it's a referral to social services.

I am very upset, for many reasons. I thought we were getting somewhere with him, and making headway with a child psychiatrist, some medication and we're starting therapy to try and learn how to parent him (and he too is going to speak with someone).

He's spent the last few months getting in trouble CONSTANTLY - vaping (in class) lying, stealing...it has been relentless but we are working through it.

I am worried about this referral - what will happen?

Help, I feel so lost. Husband is raging and my lovely MIL has just been taken to hospital with AF today - this all combined with two other children, a very full-on job and an elderly dog to care for means I feel a little frazzled. I wish I could disappear for a while.

I do not want SS involved in our lives.

@SphincterSaysWhat

Why not? Your ds is sadly out of control which must be horrible for you all but why wouldn't you jump at the opportunity to get all the support and intervention available? Is it that you think there is stigma attached?

You say that you do not want SS involved in our lives and you can imagine that no school teacher, pupil or parent would want a boy who shoots randomly with a BB gun in their lives.

It's evident, based on your son's actions, that the situation is completely out of control. I know many families with ADHD running through generations of family members, it is not an excuse for shooting a child on the bus. Of course ADHD can be hugely challenging but many people with a diagnosis do incredibly well in life and are in good careers.

If you want to change this terrible situation, you need to prioritise parenting your dc, getting all the help that is available, you probably will need family therapy to address the dynamics behind this terrible incident.

ADHD is a tough condition for families but in no way can your ds excuse his actions using his diagnosis. Maybe you or your dh will need to take a break from your stressful job to address the situation be there for your boy, who at 12 has his whole future ahead of him, he needs to get the right support to learn to manage himself.

How will you make amends to the other family? How come you don't know who the other family are? Was this a public bus or school bus?

And why on Earth would you reward you ds with shooting lessons if he shot someone? That's the height of being irresponsible. I doubt that after he has shot someone he'd ever be allowed to get a FA licence in any case. But why reward him? He should get the dressing down of a century and then all the support that is humanly possible.

I mean, he SHOT a child. Seriously.

@Enaff

I do not want SS involved in our lives.

@SphincterSaysWhat

Why not? Your ds is sadly out of control which must be horrible for you all but why wouldn't you jump at the opportunity to get all the support and intervention available? Is it that you think there is stigma attached?

You say that you do not want SS involved in our lives and you can imagine that no school teacher, pupil or parent would want a boy who shoots randomly with a BB gun in their lives.

It's evident, based on your son's actions, that the situation is completely out of control. I know many families with ADHD running through generations of family members, it is not an excuse for shooting a child on the bus. Of course ADHD can be hugely challenging but many people with a diagnosis do incredibly well in life and are in good careers.

If you want to change this terrible situation, you need to prioritise parenting your dc, getting all the help that is available, you probably will need family therapy to address the dynamics behind this terrible incident.

ADHD is a tough condition for families but in no way can your ds excuse his actions using his diagnosis. Maybe you or your dh will need to take a break from your stressful job to address the situation be there for your boy, who at 12 has his whole future ahead of him, he needs to get the right support to learn to manage himself.

How will you make amends to the other family? How come you don't know who the other family are? Was this a public bus or school bus?

And why on Earth would you reward you ds with shooting lessons if he shot someone? That's the height of being irresponsible. I doubt that after he has shot someone he'd ever be allowed to get a FA licence in any case. But why reward him? He should get the dressing down of a century and then all the support that is humanly possible.

I mean, he SHOT a child. Seriously.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. He bought the gun on the Thursday. He shot it in class and then on the school bus that day. I saw it at home on Thursday evening and took it off him - not knowing about the other things that happened - that was made clear to me on Friday. So when I said we could look into a shooting club, I didn't know about any of this.

We live in the countryside and are about 5 miles from the high school - I don't know they parents. That happens when they go to high school. It's not like primary school. That's how I don't know the child who got hit, but at the same time the child's parent made an anonymous complain via email, the school said. So I don't think they're allowed to tell me, even if they figure it out. My DS hasn't told me yet who it was, and to be fair he might not know - he didn't point it at someone, he discharged it on the bus and it bounced around - he might not know, but we're not at the bottom of it yet.

Giving up our jobs is a lovely thought - but what about the mortgage? What about our other children and their lives? We support my sister and her child, what about them? It is easy on MN to say "maybe you'll have to give your jobs ip" without thinking about our actual real lives - but that's for the suggestion. Part time is on my mind, but it would mean giving up my partnership at my firm (I'm an equity partner at a law firm) which would be a huge shame. I'd never get it back at my age - never.

He has been suspended for three days. The other two days of the week he's in isolation.

I've taken him out in the car today, didn't really get anywhere - just trying to get him to think through his choices, but he said it just never comes into his thinking. He's promised to try.

We're starting with family
Therapy next week, organised a week before this incident with the gun. And he's under a child psychiatrist already, started meds for adhd and were learning how to parent him.

What more can we do? We've changed our tack with him because clearly nothing is working 🤷‍♀️

But let's consider giving up our jobs and not making the mortgage payments. Thanks.

Mumsnet the only place on the Internet you can become a fully qualified phycologist without doing a days training.

@SphincterSaysWhat definitely no to the shooting lessons! What and how much medication is he on?

[quote Duxiejhrhrvjz]@Whitestick Is right. Why on Earth would you think allowing him to use guns after he’s proved he can’t be trusted with them Would be a good idea?
I say this as a person who’s family are into shooting and the parent of an ADHD 12 year old boy.
Guns are not toys, even air rifles/BB guns. They are not for 12 year olds. Especially 12 year olds that are so out of control.
I would be keeping him home as much as possible.
Where has he got such the weapon from? If it is another child at school I hope you get to the bottom of that also.
Sounds like you have so much going on right now. Try not to worry about the SS referral. It sounds like you could really use some help with your DS right now.[/quote]
I didn't know about what he'd done when I said to him we could look into clubs. All I knew is that he'd come home with a BB gun bought that day from
A child in school - it was taken from him when I saw it. I didn't know about what he'd done until the day after. Which is when I posted, for once hoping to get some support and not encounter those who like to put the boot in, but this is MN.

I can hear him now, going around his siblings irritating them. DH's Job is in flux at the moment (he's the main earner) and his mum is in hospital, my gorgeous MIL and all I can think Is that my lovely, caring first born is one more stupid fucking decision away from a serious incident and I know where it ends (I'm a barrister).

Every single black cloud in our home is because of him - and it is unrelenting. Unrelenting.

@danni0509

Mumsnet the only place on the Internet you can become a fully qualified phycologist without doing a days training.

@SphincterSaysWhat definitely no to the shooting lessons! What and how much medication is he on?

The shooting lessons was on the cards before I found out about what he did.

He's on this stuff. I was with a friend last night and she's a GP, she said that they might up her dose.

I had thought it was working - but perhaps not. Perhaps that was wishful
Thinking on my part.

I’ve had it suggest that I become a SAHM - it’s hard enough with a second income from a DP/H, but as a lone parent? Fucking impossible.

Trying to care for a child with ADHD and all the appointments, needs, plus other DC and ya know, a need to eat and have a roof over our heads…

Unless I win the Lottery any time soon, I’ll just have to keep on how I am, until things either get easier, or I have a breakdown. I’m already burnt out.

Honestly though OP - SS have been a huge help for me and my DC, including referring other DCs as Young Carers and now they can access all sorts, where they go alone and don’t have to be worrying about their sibling having a meltdown, they can just enjoy activities.

@ENoeuf

I would expect this to result in a permanent exclusion tbh, so you may find that you are asked to consider other types of school. From experience, this is a PE offence and I’d be surprised if an appeal was successful. I’ll try and find something about being excluded - either a pupil referral unit or a different school would be offered. Not adding this to worry you but just be prepared that this may happen. It’s happened now - you can only work with a referral if it comes to it, otherwise you’ll be viewed negatively. If they feel satisfied you are engaging with the right support I don’t think it will be heavy handed?

When I went to the school and asked them first if we were looking at a PE he was shocked and said "no way" (which shocked me). They said that he was a prat, for sure, but he's not on the top 20 of any teachers' 'bad kid list' in the school. Which made me feel like there was hope. I needed that.

@BitcherOfBlakiven

I’ve had it suggest that I become a SAHM - it’s hard enough with a second income from a DP/H, but as a lone parent? Fucking impossible.

Trying to care for a child with ADHD and all the appointments, needs, plus other DC and ya know, a need to eat and have a roof over our heads…

Unless I win the Lottery any time soon, I’ll just have to keep on how I am, until things either get easier, or I have a breakdown. I’m already burnt out.

Honestly though OP - SS have been a huge help for me and my DC, including referring other DCs as Young Carers and now they can access all sorts, where they go alone and don’t have to be worrying about their sibling having a meltdown, they can just enjoy activities.

I feel not so worried about intervention now.

I can't give any details of course, but in my line of work I've seen the poorer side of child services, so I am reticent.

@covilha

Please get all the help you can. This isn’t just about your son but the society you want him to be part of and to which he belongs By the way, what would be your response if it were your child who was injured and you head not only did the mother decline support but then enrolled her kid in a shooting club?! Great username OP, by the way 💐

The shooting club suggestion was from me to him BEFORE I knew what had happened - I am desperate for him to enjoy something extra curricular, that was my thinking. Clearly that's odd the cards now.

We'll see what extra help we can get, on top of what we're doing already.

If I was the mother of the child that was hit, I'd be fucking furious.

You could take a couple of weeks of parental leave to address this urgent situation. You and your dh could go p/t, each 4 days a week for a short period of time, speak to the partners in your firm and get them on side so you can work reduced hours for a period.

The reality is that if you are both working ft then you can't be around that much to support him though this. Sometimes kids need us more when they are teens than when they're younger and self tucked way in child care. Who is there for your son, when get him from school, as in who supervises him?

I work FT and have had to deal with challenging family situations, I know that not being around due to long hours working and commuting can be part of the problem and sometimes you have to prioritise your family.

I suppose I can't see what else SS could offer us, when we're under a child psychiatrist and begin talk therapy (parents and DS, together and apart) next week.

It's not only about what they have to offer you, it's about intervening and managing your child and your family as you dc is currently vulnerable to the possibility of hurting himself or another person. I hope you will have a great experience with SS and that they will take this very seriously.

They’ve been a damn sight more useful than CAMHS, and my useless ex who “doesn’t believe in all this nonsense” Me and DD have ASD and ADHD, to say he’s infuriating is an understatement. He’s far senior at work than I am and could actually take her to apps without it affecting his position as much as it does mine - I’ve had to drop from full time study with part time work to part time study and WFH as it is, any less and I can’t put the food on the table.

She starts secondary in September and I’m bloody worried to say the least. Elder DD will be here and they both get along well and keep to themselves, perhaps only once a week they’d be alone together for a few hours, but still, nerve wracking.

Why do you think people are "putting the boot in"? No poster has done that. You have clarified that the shooting club suggestion was before you knew he had shot someone, that fine but if I found a rouge gun in a family members room my emergency arm bells would ring like nuclear armageddon. Incidentally I have family members who own a FA license and know how strict the conditions are for obtaining and keeping it. I wouldn't dream of offering a 12 year old boy who has gone through the process of sourcing and purchasing a gun shooting lessons. Instead I'd ensure he knew. there and then, how unacceptable and risky his actions. Telling him guns are dangerous while offering shooting lessons is well meant but indulging. He needs a sharp shock and lots of exploration as to how and why he got this gun.

He obviously committed telling you he'd shot the gun twice in school and on the school bus. Good lord.

• omitted telling you

Discharging any firearm in a public place is a criminal offence and the police should be involved especially as it happened in a school the first time

Your son is vulnerable. He's impulsive, he doesn't understand risk, he wants money, he's interested in weapons. These factors mean he's at higher risk of getting groomed into something like county lines.

SS aren't there to punish you. They'll likely want to look at how to reduce the chances of him getting exploited or getting into serious trouble in the future.

They may also look at ways to help your other DC. Like a PP said, your other DC might benefit from time in a Young Carers' group, where they can relax without DS "irritating them". I know SS have a scary reputation, but their help could really benefit you and your family.

OP I am continuing the points I started last night because this has very serious potentials. A Registered Gun Club is required to filter new applications for membership. There are regular meetings with Police. I doubt an older person with those meds would be allowed any kind of permit.
Your 12 year old is only just under control. You say you can hear him annoying his siblings. Do you really allow him to Vape do you shrug this off?
He wants access to guns, which you agreed to before this attack on another child. Does this interest come from you or family? Or has he conjured it up by himself. If it is him alone then he might be developing a very unhealthy interest. He bought the BB because that is all he could get.

Watch out for catapults and crossbows as well.

You really do have a lot on your plate. Can the other children go and stay with relatives they know? To give them a little break.

Your Family group + MIL must be priority. You can get rid of the dog. Everything else is low on the list. You need help from serious professionals.

Can a residential placing be arranged? It would take pressure off you all.
I do have experience of mental health in a younger relative who had to go into residential care, it did work well. She learned more and she relaxed because she wasn't always trying to keep up with ordinary people.

You have my thoughts and prayers.

Is Elvanse a stimulant or non-stimulant medication?

It sounds like his medication needs either increasing or changing as his level of impulsivity is still very high.

My daughter takes 50mg Medikinet slow release every day, but it took us 6 months to get the level right.

Try posting in the SEND area if Mumsnet. You may get more informed and helpful responses from parents who have been in a similar position.

I think that most people are trying to be helpful, but unless you have a child with similar difficulties, it's difficult to imagine not just being able to sort it out through punishment or normal consequences.

I have just seen other posts; he can't get a weapon legally. Age and references to start with. Which means an illegal weapon supplied by criminals.
Perhaps he don't know any, "they" will find him!

Have a watch of this. It will probably make you cry (fair warning) and it's very long, but it's life changing.

www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY

That's Russell Barkley. Best ADHD doctor on the planet IMO. He lost his own twin brother due to ADHD - his brother was very impulsive and died in a high speed car crash doing something incredibly risky. ADHD brains don't process risk like most people do - the problem is the risks DO apply to people with ADHD just like everyone else, so the challenge with this type of ADHD is learning to manage impulse control and look to external checks for risk management.

Then Ross Greene The Explosive Child is also great. If he is not generally explosive in behaviour, you can try Raising Human Beings. It has the same principle but is less alarming/scary if your child is not behaviourally challenging. Here he is explaining the comcept:

www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL96FCD5F40215BB70

Many of the suggestions on this thread will not work for a child with severe ADHD because the assumption (that he does not know the consequences of his actions, or does not fear/care about them enough) is incorrect. The idea that he will be able to try harder and therefore insert thought before action is incorrect. He says he will do this, because he has learnt that the correct answer when you are in trouble is to say this, and he might even mean it, but just "trying harder" is meaningless when he probably doesn't know when or how to do that. In fact you say you can hear him winding up his siblings - that is proof it's already not working, it probably hasn't even occurred to him that it's a situation where he should be putting thought before action (and even if it did it would be difficult for him to actually do that.) You can't possibly pre-empt every single situation where he might do something stupid and warn him to avoid that - so he probably wouldn't behave the same in that exact situation, but it essentially doesn't matter because he will end up with another opportunity to do something impulsive and the chances are he will do it. You are absolutely right to take the gun away, but (as I think you know) it's not going to solve the next problem (whatever that might be.) With ADHD the brain level of dopamine is constantly low so essentially they are like an addict and the next hit (approval from friends, looking cool, adrenaline rush, instant "achievement" feedback e.g. video games) is prioritised over absolutely anything else.

Family therapy and ADHD specific parenting all sound great. Really good things to be doing, and it does take time to learn new ways so be patient with yourselves as well. The only thing I'd suggest in conjunction with this is to learn as much as you can about how ADHD works, (and share this with him, if he will listen to you) which is why I shared the links above. Hopefully it helps. The teen years will be a rollercoaster, it's mainly about trying to keep him in the cart! And it will calm down once he has gone through puberty although I appreciate that is a daunting amount of time away.

It might be that the medication needs adjusting, possibly relating to the hormone changes in puberty. Is he generally happy to take it? It might be that closer supervision is needed in general. Russell Barkley for example suggests treating them as a child 2/3 their age in terms of supervision and how much leeway you give them.

^When I went to the school and asked them first if we were looking at a PE he was shocked and said "no way" (which shocked me). They said that he was a prat, for sure, but he's not on the top 20 of any teachers' 'bad kid list' in the school. Which made me feel like there was hope. I needed that."

What hell hole of a school is this, where a child who has stolen, vaped in class and discharged a BB gun twice, is not even in the top 20 of bad behaviour?

To add to BertieBotts suggestions, Kings College London offer a really excellent free Mooc: ADHD Current Research and Practice

@PupInAPram

If my child had been shot by another child I would definitely want the police and social services involved with the other child's family. It's serious enough to merit that.

I agree with this

@Littlefish do you mind me asking - my dc is about to start medikinet, only 5mg though - do they just increase the dose every month is there is no improvement in attention levels? I never thought beyond getting the first prescription really, stupidly!

Great post @BertieBotts, thank you for sharing those links.

@Player456, I too thought that. 3 days exclusion for shooting a gun in class? I wouldn't want my dc going there

Yes Elvanse is a stimulant, it’s another name for Adderall.

I was Dx as an adult, but my titration was done fortnightly.