lack of empathy or fear of consequences - horrible bad behaviour

[Delfinn12345]

Hi All,
I have a SD who is 9, I've been with her father for 5 years and we have 2 children together. The SD lives with us, and her mother is a nightmare and will do anything to be awkward even if it impacts her daughter, who she drops like a hot stone when she cant be bothered with her.
Everything was fine, even when our first child was born, but when SD's mother split from her BF at the time SD changed overnight into this frankly awful child, who doesn't care for anyone in our family.
I've left the room before for 2 minutes to put something in another room and returned to find my toddler grey choking on something, and the SD just calmly watching from a meter away, who when the "entertainment" was over just turned and walked away - never asking if the little one was okay.
She will go out of her way to steal, lie, bully, damage things, ignore you.
She has reduced her father to tears before but just watched without a care in the world until he snapped and shouted at her - then it was the tear act of woe is me, I'm being yelled at.
We've tried every reward or punishment system out there and stuck to each one for weeks and she just doesn't care.
We always say if you do A, then B will happen and consistently follow through, but she will moan you do B, but then do A straight away again.
Nothing works - both myself and her Dad now look forward to the weekends where she isn't there.
Her behavior has been like this since 2019, and I'm dreading her hitting being a teenager. It's so bad i've even discussed my partner moving out as her shocking behavior is not fair on the little ones. The youngest has recently been rushed to hospital, and no, she hasn't asked once if he's okay (he is). I'm at my wits end.
I know I sound really uncaring, but for 3 years hardly a day has gone by where she hasn't deliberately gone out of her way to ruin everyone else's day. (NB she knows if she behaved she would be included in family things, but that bad behavior results in her not getting them).
She seems to think she shouldn't be punished for lying, stealing, bullying, destroying things - and if she is, then she'll punish us for daring to do something to her.
Sorry this is a bit rambly any suggestions or constructive negatives greatly received

She can't, but she herself is so incredibly young and vulnerable. I wish you well, it sounds an awful situation.

Think of it like this. Say you have a faulty wiring system in your house that keeps on sparking fires. What you are doing is dealing with the fires - trying to put them out. But putting them out doesnt solve anything because the faulty wiring is still there and it is still sparking fires. Nothing except a fix of the faulty wiring is going to stop the fires.

And that is where you are - trying to fix the fires by a system of punishment and reward. Which sound appropriate if you were dealing with a child who didnt have the clear abandonment and attachment issues that your SD faces.

The sad truth is that you cant without some serious help and it is accessing that which is the problem.

Speak to the school/Social Services/GP as many people are you can. Recognise that punishments are effective. Access online resources if you can relating to attachment/abandonment

But she also needs her father here - to really drive home the fact that he wont leave or abandon here. She sounds like she is believing herself to be unlovable and that you and he will abandon her and is pushing it.

She doesnt care for anyone because she is finding herself unable to think of herself as lovable or people care for her. Try to start with that reinforce her position in the family as a member and that you care for her. Try and get a sense of why she is behaving like this and take it from there.

Good luck it wont be easy without the professional help she clearly needs and accessing that will be challenging sadly

Sorry OP I read your PM but and wrote a long answer but it won't send. So I've copied it here instead.

God that is really awful. My concerns would be that she has foetal alcohol syndrome, an attachment disorder, ADHD, ASD, ODD....or that there is something going on beyond just bad behaviour. But foetal alcohol syndrome has physical characteristics (small head/small build etc) so would probably be more obvious.
I'm not an expert and have very limited experience but I would say that with an attachment disorder normal parenting will not work as it would with another child. Children with ADHD and ASD also are not as simple as parenting any other child (my ds has ASD so I do know a little about that). Keep pushing to get her assessed. Literally write down every single thing she has done as far back as you can both remember, every unusual or extreme behaviour and what her mum has done and been like over the years.

I can imagine it's really hard to live with and a difficult balance between not letting her get away with it and trying to get her to understand she's done something wrong and it's not acceptable. I would assume she's in some kind of survival mode where it's very difficult to change her behaviour because she is so shut down right now (understandable given how her mum promises the earth and then lets her down all the time). I would avoid isolating her in any way or taking away anything like outings that have been promised as in her eyes you are going to be behaving like her mum.

What I did with my son was that I sat him down gave him some pocket money (£2 at the time) and told him he could get the same amount of pocket money every week - but if he misbehaved he would lose 20p or if he hurt someone 50p. It's really important that you don't take away money that has already been given, always take away from next weeks money and try to always give a warning before taking money (obviously not possible if she's hurt someone). Punishments are always best if they are used sparingly so try to never get to the point where you've taken all her money away. Also it might be really helpful to her to allow her to earn back any lost money by being kind to her siblings - this can then be praised and rewarded (even with an extra 20p pocket money if she hasn't lost any). She may have a very manipulative streak though particularly if she has an attachment disorder which means she is horrid to her siblings until she needs to earn the money back, then sweet as cherry pie to get it back again - so you need to keep that in mind. She may also be beyond caring and just not respond to any rewards or punishments (my son wasn't really bothered by them either) but this was the one thing that worked perhaps as he had quite a lot of control over it - and really wanted the money.

I think it's really, really important to try to see things from her perspective - she has been consistently really badly let down by the one person who should love her most. She has no self esteem, doesn't feel valued, doesn't care about anyone including herself, does what she feels she needs to to survive. Replacing memories of her early life with happy ones certainly sounds like a survival mechanism. She desperately needs unconditional love and to be told she is loved, patience, consistency, to feel she is valued but she it definitely won't be a quick fix. For any other child I'd normally say clear boundaries and expectations but they just might not work as well as you'd hope with her depending on her diagnosis.

I'd suggest thinking of her and treating her almost like she is a much younger child (emotionally she is probably far below her actual age) having far lower expectations of her behavior and dealing with it like you would with a much younger child - explaining why it's wrong (it may not be as obvious to her as you'd expect, it wasn't for my son) and how you would like her to behave instead etc. I'd also try to give her a couple of options and make sure you use a positive tone and encouragement when asking her to do things - the sorts of things you'd do with a difficult 2 year old. You will need to put huge effort, patience and consistency into this though and try to remember that it's not her fault. I don't think it's going to be easy especially as she isn't your biological child and there is only so much influence you have as a step parent. Does your DH have text message evidence of the mothers attitude and the way she lets DD down? - keep everything if so just in case. Children need consistency and this mother sounds like she is completely messing up her daughter. Unbelieveable that she is a social worker no wonder you sometimes hear really bad things about SS when you have people like that working for them. Keep fighting for her though in whatever way you can xxx

@Tal45 yes SD really did get a poopy roll of the dice, we ruled out foetal alcohol syndrome for the same reasons you listed, and she seemed to be emotionally developing well and coping with everything that has happened. I've been leaning towards something like ODD, as she seems to function okay in other settings.
She has had her emotional intelligence assessed by one point (family support) and its normal to high - one point have since ran a mile since her mothers meddling involvement so no further help there for us.
We already tried the money suggestion exactly as you suggested after a month and no joy we tried letting her select the reward as we thought well okay she might not be money orientated, but even riding lessons, and earning the whole riding kit (boots, hat etc.) that she picked didn't motivate her.
It could be that she is testing us to see if we are like her mother, or not.
I used to do the school runs as her Dad doesn't (yet) drive, and I've several times had to physically grab her and haul her back off the road because as we approached to cross, i've said stop, and seen her shrug in a "you dont tell me what to do way" and stepped out into oncoming traffic.
If you say left some days she will just go right to try to start an argument (neither her Dad or myself bite, but that hasn't stopped her trying)
We tried for a long time to treat her as you would a younger child, as we thought maybe she has regressed, or is mimicking the younger ones - but get don't treat me like a kid thrown back at us - queue kick offs (and at first we thought oh are we being condescending - no we checked each other) I donno, maybe we were trying to do the right thing but doing it wrong.
I appreciate the kind words

Jesus Delfin the more you post the more obvious how difficult and complex this situation is. I feel so sorry for your SD and for you guys trying to deal with the fallout while all the while the trauma is likely ongoing thanks to her mother’s shitty choices. My heart goes out to you all. It is really just fire fighting as best as you can because you are not in control of all of the elements. If the opportunity came to get her therapy definitely she is going to need it on an ongoing basis. Mind yourselves too though, these situations have the effect of harming everyone in range.

Hello OP, does your SD talk about her feelings, at all?
Woukd a child's "feelings journal" help her untangle some stuff. There's several out there. Spiffy (I think it's liveSpiffy.com) has a whole section of books for children.

Oh you poor thing and your poor SD. SItuations like this make me angry at the sheer lack of support that is available for families like yours. Where your SD clearly needs to have professional involvement and despite the horror on her maternal side has you clearly wanting to help and solve it but understandably given the complexity of what is involved has no idea where to start.

Leaving you to fire fight the constant fires without being able to solve the underlying cause.

@Whiskyinajar

Hello OP, does your SD talk about her feelings, at all? Woukd a child's "feelings journal" help her untangle some stuff. There's several out there. Spiffy (I think it's liveSpiffy.com) has a whole section of books for children.

We were recommended to use a thoughts and feelings jar. Where she could pop any emotions, feelings or thoughts that she didn't want to talk to us about on paper to get them out. Her Dad makes sure he asks her a few times a week during quiet moments if she wants to chat about anything. At her previous school we made sure she could see their drop in councilor once a week (but this was an open group - could be her could be half the school that turns up) - haven't had a chance with new school yet, only been there 4 days The journal while more useful is too much effort for her after the first few goes she stops using it - even if nudged in its direction. The jar is hit and miss Her Mam is a shopaholic and is teaching her instant gratification from new things is the way to go, so once the book is a few days old its discarded Its hard to get her talking about important things as she is used to being quizzed on her homelife by her mother, so clams up if it sounds like asking questions

It's frustrating as with being so "new thing" centered you would have thought a reward system to get these things would work - but nope. I don't know if its because the thrill you hear shopaholics get isn't there if she knows she has it / will get it

Do you think he mothers ex may still want a relationship with her if he was contacted, she may miss him and feel better if she did days out with him. X

I think the fear of getting mixed up with her mother will stop him. From the bits we have pieced together she was bleeding him dry, to the point where he was working 5 long days during the week and Saturday mornings, while she went on girlie weekends, holidays for the 2 of them, fairly sure he paid for at least 2 sets of solicitors while she was trying to gain custody. The nail in their relationship coffin was probably when she assaulted him and spent the night in the cells sobering up (yeah we learned that one through court proceedings where police background checks are done).
It doesn't help SD, but you can understand why he would refuse

Did you get a chance to look at Therapeutic Parenting yet?

It will change your world, and hers. Rewards and punishments only work on healthy kids with secure attachments. Kids without that basic building block don’t respond as you’d expect - if you take something away to punish them, you’re only reinforcing their negative worldview. If you offer a reward, you’re setting them up to fail - oftentimes, they’ll be so certain they can’t achieve the goal (whatever it is), they’ll not even try or they’ll self-sabotage.

Read up about childhood trauma, ACEs etc.

You tell her to stop at the road, then she gets defiant and runs out and you have to pull her back.
What happens on the times when she does stop? Nothing? Or do you praise her for stopping?

For every time you criticise her, praise her three.