lack of empathy or fear of consequences - horrible bad behaviour

[Delfinn12345]

Hi All,
I have a SD who is 9, I've been with her father for 5 years and we have 2 children together. The SD lives with us, and her mother is a nightmare and will do anything to be awkward even if it impacts her daughter, who she drops like a hot stone when she cant be bothered with her.
Everything was fine, even when our first child was born, but when SD's mother split from her BF at the time SD changed overnight into this frankly awful child, who doesn't care for anyone in our family.
I've left the room before for 2 minutes to put something in another room and returned to find my toddler grey choking on something, and the SD just calmly watching from a meter away, who when the "entertainment" was over just turned and walked away - never asking if the little one was okay.
She will go out of her way to steal, lie, bully, damage things, ignore you.
She has reduced her father to tears before but just watched without a care in the world until he snapped and shouted at her - then it was the tear act of woe is me, I'm being yelled at.
We've tried every reward or punishment system out there and stuck to each one for weeks and she just doesn't care.
We always say if you do A, then B will happen and consistently follow through, but she will moan you do B, but then do A straight away again.
Nothing works - both myself and her Dad now look forward to the weekends where she isn't there.
Her behavior has been like this since 2019, and I'm dreading her hitting being a teenager. It's so bad i've even discussed my partner moving out as her shocking behavior is not fair on the little ones. The youngest has recently been rushed to hospital, and no, she hasn't asked once if he's okay (he is). I'm at my wits end.
I know I sound really uncaring, but for 3 years hardly a day has gone by where she hasn't deliberately gone out of her way to ruin everyone else's day. (NB she knows if she behaved she would be included in family things, but that bad behavior results in her not getting them).
She seems to think she shouldn't be punished for lying, stealing, bullying, destroying things - and if she is, then she'll punish us for daring to do something to her.
Sorry this is a bit rambly any suggestions or constructive negatives greatly received

@Delfinn12345 I think you need to re-appraise and learn about consequences and rewarding poor behaviour. The exclusion is deeply wounding for a child.

@ Coronawireless did you read the bit where i said after her little sister was born we made sure she had 1-to-1 with myself and her father, and made sure she felt included, or did you skip that because it didn't match with the snarky comment you wanted to post?

@Delfinn12345

If everyones finished agreeing on how awful I am, does anyone actually have any constructive suggestions that might improve the situation?

Her father and I aren't stupid we know nothing we have tried so far has worked - but are open to suggestions

I gave you some just there in response to the private message you sent me (why?)

Here they are again. I'm sure others will be along with better ideas.

You messaged: 'So please tell me, do I stop buying food, or the gas and electric to pay for the therapy.... maybe the mortgage?@Delfinn12345

and I replied:

No, you first of all earn that being a step parent is an enormous responsibility and that you can learn, for free, through supported family organisations how to be a better listener and not react to your step daughters difficulties. Thats all free and doable from right now. Your step daughter is absolutely acting out and you both see it as poor behaviour. No adult in her world is advocatimg for her.

Secondly you, your husband, extended family or her mum or her family can chip in and get support - its not that expensive and besides its necessary. Making it ut as a 'what do I not pay?' as you have done above solves no problem for anyone.

You seem to be ambivilent about what she is facing. Think about it if you were her or indeed if one of your kids had to face into a blended family.

Time to step up and be the adult.

Best of luck.

@Delfinn12345

@ Coronawireless did you read the bit where i said after her little sister was born we made sure she had 1-to-1 with myself and her father, and made sure she felt included, or did you skip that because it didn't match with the snarky comment you wanted to post?

You cant include a kid that you are excluding from trips, mealtimes and day to day living. Double standards here.

No, I read it. But it doesn’t sound like it lasted very long.
Maybe you are trying your best and I get that it’s difficult. But are you aware of how you sound? That you have a lovely family of four, plus a problem stepchild. Rather than a family of five in which one child is having difficulties due to great upheaval in her life.

If I were you I'd protect your children by moving out and just meeting up eg for a meal out or at the park. This would protect your SD as well.

Then I think it's down to your partner to spend a lot of time and energy on her. The move doesn't have to mean you split up - it's just what's best for the family at the moment.

@ Colin56 we're tried rewarding good behavior, we've tried buying something expensive, letting her select something she wants to do, bought small treats to reward even the slightest good behavior, we've had sticker charts for good behavior, we've tried bribing with cash - set her own saving account up, and physically showed her us transferring money in when she does something good - after the first 2 or 3 goes, she cant be bothered. We've said she can have days out with just us, or me or her Dad, she isnt bothered

So you tell me if you cant punish OR reward someone into behavior modification - how would YOU handle it

@Coronawireless actually we are a family of six, my partner has a son from another relationship (not the SD's mum). SD's behavior is affecting him, as he has asked his mum to only visit when SD isnt there as he doesn't like her bad behavior either.
We have to try to balance making him see SD, and making him hate coming to stay

@Colin56 she started getting excluded AFTER her mothers then boyfriend split up with her mother in 2019, when her behavior changed practically over night - did you read anything. Her little sister was born in 2018, and we made sure she didn't feel excluded.
Before you hit back with well she just lost a father figure - it wasn't day 1 of being naughty your excluded, we tried a lot of other things inbetween

I’m loving the fact no one picked up on the dining table part. What the hell is she doing to them?! Bit of pen etc on them or smashing them up? If it’s the latter then that’s what her Christmas present money would be spent on. Surely no one can condone her smashing up the houses and deliberately hurting siblings (especially younger smaller ones)?!

@Delfinn12345

@ Colin56 we're tried rewarding good behavior, we've tried buying something expensive, letting her select something she wants to do, bought small treats to reward even the slightest good behavior, we've had sticker charts for good behavior, we've tried bribing with cash - set her own saving account up, and physically showed her us transferring money in when she does something good - after the first 2 or 3 goes, she cant be bothered. We've said she can have days out with just us, or me or her Dad, she isnt bothered

So you tell me if you cant punish OR reward someone into behavior modification - how would YOU handle it

So, everything above is transactional - 'I give you this if you are 'good' - whats good?. You are starting from a minus position becuase she does not trust you and because she has had excessive sanctions for acting out for legitimately held emotions (She might see it as - You took her dad and replaced her with two other kids and now exclude her). You have taught her to continue with more extreme behaviour instead of working this out.

What would I do?

1. I'd get the money together for a family therapy session to get an assessment
2. I'd get your husband to be an adult and find out how to work with his ex wife to reduce conflict.
3. Id openly say to your step daughter that you BOTH realise how difficult it is for her, that she is loved and a great part of the family.
4. I would try to transition her from poor behaviour to respectful behavour and I'd look on this as a long term goal.
5. I would reduce any punishment and instead of punishing I'd react calmly and say that that is not the kind of behaviour you like to see and focus on the effect of her behaviour.
6. Every tiny tiny step she makes I would support her with and thank her for.
7. I'd pick my battles and not have everyday conflict.
8. Forget about star charts - she does not want transactions she wants love and affection and to know she is part of something.
9. I would do simple, tiny, little things to include her: bake together, walk together, get her involved in picking out clothes for her siblings, painting - anything that gives neutral side by side activity with low threshold for friction.

10. Finally I'd learn to parent together because its clearly not working for either of you.

[quote Delfinn12345]@Colin56 she started getting excluded AFTER her mothers then boyfriend split up with her mother in 2019, when her behavior changed practically over night - did you read anything. Her little sister was born in 2018, and we made sure she didn't feel excluded.
Before you hit back with well she just lost a father figure - it wasn't day 1 of being naughty your excluded, we tried a lot of other things inbetween[/quote]
Look, none of the things you tried are working. 2019 was two years ago. You need to find another way to fix this.

A suggestion I would have is read about Therapeutic Parenting. You can Google examples on You Tube. Use praise and encouragement, empathise with how she is feeling and show her she is still loved. Stop excluding her from family meals etc as this will make her feel worse- for example you think there are abandonment issues- excluding her will make her feel more abandoned and behave worse.

Everything else aside, your very young children clearly aren’t safe in their own home with her around.

I think all the 'othering' you are doing is very destructive for her confidence and her feeling part of the family unit. The leaving her out of family trips and eating separately - you must see how damaging that it? She probably needs love-bombing if anything. It sounds like she is crying out for attention. She has a step mother (who doesn't sound very keen on her, perhaps understandably) and two new siblings and a nightmare mother. It's no wonder she's not well adjusted. None of the adults in her life sound like they are listening to what her behaviour is actually trying to say. She needs some counselling before everyone completely fucks her up.

If what you are doing is not working you need to try something else. If consequences / rewards don't solve the problems then try another approach. She is 9 which is very young.

Have a look at Ross Greene - the explosive child. The theory is that kids do well if they can, if they can't then you need to work out what is preventing her and help her.

Again, she is only 9. She needs to know she has parents that love her - try acknowledging that she must be suffering and removing all the demands. If she misbehaves you can let her know that's not ok but try to work out why.

It's very hard with more than one child. And I know it's easier said than done. But she is little and if you want things to change and what you are doing now is not working then you have nothing to lose trying something else.

I think your punishments are too big to be effective.

To give an example that works in my house - we have an established time that the dc can use their iPads. I would give a warning that if they do [unwanted behaviour] it will cost 5 minutes. If they continue then I dock 5 minutes (meaning they have to wait until 6:05 to start). If they still continue I will take another 5 minutes. It’s very rare that I’d get to 15! And if I did, I’d take it as a sign that I need another approach.

And they have an opportunity to earn time back with a chore.

I always offer a solution. eg do you want to start again and say that in a better tone of voice? So they know exactly what I want.

I always see the good behaviour, and pounce as soon as the tide turns. It’s just easy to be in my good books.

Big dramatic punishments are satisfying for you but they’re not good at effecting change (and you already have proof of that).

I always start and end the day on a good note. And take every opportunity to let the dc know they are loved. Discipline and punishment will never work without a ton of warmth and love.

I’m dealing with a dc with asd, and awaiting an assessment for adhd and oppositional defiance disorder so I do empathise with your situation.

We were hoping things would improve when the pandemic things settled down, as being cut off from your friends etc with the schools closed would be traumatic for anyone, and we could use that to ramp up the oh wow it was nice you did X, or praise the I appreciate the help with X.

I'll try looking up the suggestions some of you have been kind enough to offer. Hopefully we will find the key, whether through mine and her Dad's interactions being modified, therapy (hers, ours or family) or a modifier (positive or negative) that works for her.

@NorthSouthcatlady the last one had to go after she repeatedly jumped up and down on the chair cross bear snapping it (after being told to stop or she would break it), the one before she slashed the back of the leather seat with craft scissors - but you know the keyboard warriors here think her father and myself are mean for punishing her

It sounds like she has attachment issues. Being excluded isn’t going to make that better. Tell her you shouldn’t have excluded her. That you love her and we’re trying to help. Then change the punishment to removing a small amount of her pocket money each time she brakes the rules (warning first unless it’s hurting someone). Try to spend 1-1 time with her and show her you like her even if you have to fake it till you make it.

Hi op, my son doesnt respind to rewards or punishments either. He has ASD so we have to very creative to modify behaviour.

Look up PACE which is what they use at his school and we do at home.

I think its significant her behaviour changed after the boyfriend left. Was he either a negative or positive influence income way.

@Delfinn12345

@ Colin56 we're tried rewarding good behavior, we've tried buying something expensive, letting her select something she wants to do, bought small treats to reward even the slightest good behavior, we've had sticker charts for good behavior, we've tried bribing with cash - set her own saving account up, and physically showed her us transferring money in when she does something good - after the first 2 or 3 goes, she cant be bothered. We've said she can have days out with just us, or me or her Dad, she isnt bothered

So you tell me if you cant punish OR reward someone into behavior modification - how would YOU handle it

Hey OP, it sounds like such a tricky situation for you and your SD and whole family, nothing but sympathy from me.

I've not been in your shoes but I do have a DD who has SN and who became violent around the same time as your DD, so I hope I can share what worked for us.

(FWIW, that does seem to be a common time for neurodivergent kids to start having real problems - maybe due to hormones, school issues, etc.)

The obvious answer.. if punishment and rewards aren't working (and they don't, for some kids) - is to not use them :) This will require a LOT of mindset changing on your part in terms of behaviour and you will need some limits. With my DD, for example, hurting her brother, me, or her Dad, was off limits. But making a mess; hitting the walls or the door; smashing a plate - was ok. It's only inanimate objects. (so dining tables are ok, and if they get beaten up, if they still work as tables, that's ok!) Other smaller stuff like playing with her brother, eating at the table, socialising etc is also her choice. It is VERY hard as a mum to let go of what is seen as basic parenting stuff. But for some kids - who are super anxious, who need to take control - who are possibly SN - it is really the best way to go.

But no rewards either (that is, no sticker charts etc!) if she wants books or clothes, I buy them for her. Other stuff is via pocket money and she generally doesn't buy stuff for herself.

How To Talk So Kids Will Listen is mentioned SO much on mumsnet, but that's because its sooo good. I also recommend The Explosive Child by Ross Greene for ways to modify behaviour while avoiding punishment/reward as much as possible.

You and your DH can change how you deal with her straight away - and it may help while the whole family decides what to do next.

(NB I was wondering about the food issue. I wondered if mealtimes were a bit disordered at her mums, and that has caused anxiety? Is a lot of her bad behaviour situated around mealtimes as well? just a thought.)

NB my daughter is 14 now and MUCH less violent and really quite sensible (altho she has her moments). Teenagers can sometimes be a lot less outwardly hormonal and chaotic than pre teens IME.

OP I just wanted to say sorry for some of these horrible responses. Seems like you are genuinely concerned and have tried things even if they haven’t worked out.

I hope things get better for you x

@Delfinn12345 so not just a bit of pen or felt tip marks then! Literally decimated by the sounds of it. Im stubborn and would either not replace it. Then every time someone mentioned then say DSD destroyed the last 4 so we can't have one. Or depending on how much of an inconvenience it was and if l really wanted one, spend money on replacing it instead of Christmas presents for her. She can have a selection box and again remind her / everyone why that is if it's mentioned

I mean - when you say she damages things or hurts her siblings what exactly are we talking about here? Major smashing and stabbing or more minor things?
You both (or at the very least her dad) should be giving her lots and lots of one on one time and telling her every single day that you love her, (or if you can’t bring yourself to say that, tell her you love BEING with her). Regardless of how she has behaved at other points during the day!!
You’ll come back and say “But I can’t spend time with her, I have two small children..”
To that I say: “She is small too, and life isn’t going well for her right now.” Surely between you and her dad you can manage something.
Instead of you “saying” she can have days out with you one on one (presumably only if she’s behaved) - just blimmin TAKE her on those days out! Regularly!! Regardless of how she’s behaved at a different point in the day. Just little things - a swim, a walk to the shop where she can help you, then sit in a cafe and have a bun together and chat.
All punishments should be short and in the moment and if possible relevant to the crime.
I mean - when you say she damages