lack of empathy or fear of consequences - horrible bad behaviour

[Delfinn12345]

Hi All,
I have a SD who is 9, I've been with her father for 5 years and we have 2 children together. The SD lives with us, and her mother is a nightmare and will do anything to be awkward even if it impacts her daughter, who she drops like a hot stone when she cant be bothered with her.
Everything was fine, even when our first child was born, but when SD's mother split from her BF at the time SD changed overnight into this frankly awful child, who doesn't care for anyone in our family.
I've left the room before for 2 minutes to put something in another room and returned to find my toddler grey choking on something, and the SD just calmly watching from a meter away, who when the "entertainment" was over just turned and walked away - never asking if the little one was okay.
She will go out of her way to steal, lie, bully, damage things, ignore you.
She has reduced her father to tears before but just watched without a care in the world until he snapped and shouted at her - then it was the tear act of woe is me, I'm being yelled at.
We've tried every reward or punishment system out there and stuck to each one for weeks and she just doesn't care.
We always say if you do A, then B will happen and consistently follow through, but she will moan you do B, but then do A straight away again.
Nothing works - both myself and her Dad now look forward to the weekends where she isn't there.
Her behavior has been like this since 2019, and I'm dreading her hitting being a teenager. It's so bad i've even discussed my partner moving out as her shocking behavior is not fair on the little ones. The youngest has recently been rushed to hospital, and no, she hasn't asked once if he's okay (he is). I'm at my wits end.
I know I sound really uncaring, but for 3 years hardly a day has gone by where she hasn't deliberately gone out of her way to ruin everyone else's day. (NB she knows if she behaved she would be included in family things, but that bad behavior results in her not getting them).
She seems to think she shouldn't be punished for lying, stealing, bullying, destroying things - and if she is, then she'll punish us for daring to do something to her.
Sorry this is a bit rambly any suggestions or constructive negatives greatly received

I feel really sad for her. Someone earlier mentioned therapeutic parenting and (if family therapy really isn't feasible yet because I would 100% be prioritising that if at all possible) I would recommend you explore this too.

Agree also with the recommendation of How to talk so kids will listen. That 'book you wished your parents had read' is also v good and relevant here too.

My 9yo has not had the traumatic experiences your child has had, but he also doesn't respond normally to rewards/punishments (often suspect some sort of neurodiversity but he may also just be a neurological quirky kid). I've given up trying to squeeze him into that box and I parent in ways that help him feel connected instead. He wants to do 'the right thing' and it's my job to help him manage that, not to try to manipulate him into it. I think the same is true for your daughter.

I think you owe her an apology (or several) and a whole lot more kindness than you've shown her for a long time, tbh. But I also think it's incredibly difficult to find that kind of kindness in response to someone who needs so much, and behaves in ways that make it feel unrewarding, so I think you also need to make sure you're finding ways to look after yourself too. Can't pour from an empty cup and all that. This is where your partner comes in too I think...

She’s clearly really quite badly traumatised. I would strongly advise reading up on his to parent adopted children and those who have been in LA care and experienced trauma. It’s not about punishing for “bad” behaviour but about understanding where it’s coming from to help her stop.
There are books on Amazon on therapeutic parenting which might help.

@Delfinn12345

At school she is fine, but there are echo's of her behavior from home, such as in groups she must be the one in control. When the other kids wont do what she wants she will go off to the library, rather than do what someone else wants. Generally she follows the teachers without incident. She was starting to act up at the after school childminders and at her grandparents. So it isnt just at home, but i'd say we get 80% of it

I agree getting into a war isnt a good idea with a kid, but she can't just bully the little ones and make them cry because she is bored. Or get them to do something she knows is wrong just to enjoy watching them being told off, or destroy things...I'm currently waiting for my 5th dining table set to arrive because she destroyed the other 4

How old are the younger kids? Maybe a conversation is in order that you don’t just blindly follow orders. You can’t blame your SD for their actions forever

She sounds quite like my (adopted) daughter. Definitely look into Therapeutic Parenting - it works wonders. There’s a Facebook group (called Therapeutic Parenting) which will give you lots of advice and point you in the right direction for more.

It will require you to go against every instinct you have (like not rewarding or punishing) but it’ll be worth it. 💐

So she has issues with food - all contact with Mom is focused on it and she has a tendency towards binging and then you use it as part of her punishment If she is acting up in the summer, and we are having a BBQ, she will stay inside and have her food inside.. You really can't weaponise food and then go oh, I don't understand why she has an eating disorder.

I know you're trying to protect your little ones, I sense you love her and I'm sure her Dad feels the same but you really need to focus on communication and acceptance over punishment

FFS get this poor child some psychological help and take all of you to a good family therapist asap. If you could afford to have two kids, your husband can find the bloody money to get his eldest daughter the help she needs.

I think you sound like a fantastic and concerned SM. It sounds very tough.

Two things spring to mind on the behaviour flip - neurodivergence and trauma. The switch flipping would point sightly towards trauma for me. Although in saying that my son has ASD and although his behaviour didn’t change me noticing it was like a switch flipping so it kind of amounted to the same. This needs the adults to start from the assumption that something is very wrong and needs intervention than in anyway trying to pin a label of being in any way a bad ‘un on any child.

I don't think you are awful - you sound at the end of your tether. It sounds like punishments aren't working so her behaviour escalated so your punishments escalated. Insisting a 8yo child ate alone in the house while everyone else was eating together outside is quite an extreme punishment. Eating together isn't a treat and certainly shouldn't be removed as punishment. If her behaviour is so poor that she is being a danger to others or destroying property removing her from the situation is sensible, but a parent should stay with her.

It does sound like she has completely detached from caring about anyone just so she can't be hurt if any of you abandon her like her step father did. Using removal of family time as a punishment is surely just going to reinforce that her place in the family is conditional.

You know punishments don't work so just stop them altogether. Intervene directly in her behaviour if necessary. For example, when she was jumping on a chair and ignored the instruction to stop you could physically lift her down - obviously calmly and without hurting her.

I understand what you mean when you say you can't afford therapy - many on MN don't understand what it means to not have anything you can cut back on which I think is why you keep getting told that over and over.

@Delfinn12345

@ Colin56 we're tried rewarding good behavior, we've tried buying something expensive, letting her select something she wants to do, bought small treats to reward even the slightest good behavior, we've had sticker charts for good behavior, we've tried bribing with cash - set her own saving account up, and physically showed her us transferring money in when she does something good - after the first 2 or 3 goes, she cant be bothered. We've said she can have days out with just us, or me or her Dad, she isnt bothered

So you tell me if you cant punish OR reward someone into behavior modification - how would YOU handle it

Hi OP, I can imagine it must be incredibly hard

how would YOU handle it Basically - I think the latest parenting wisdom is that neither rewards nor punishments actually work. In fact they can be very counterproductive. Look up Alfie Kohn 'Unconditional Parenting', the first chapter of the book explains it all really well. Or books like 'No Drama Discipline' and things by Dan Siegel. Or aha parenting, Hand in Hand parenting, Sarah Ockwell-Smith. What can help instead of rewards and punishments is:

• Try to see behaviour as communication. There are no children that are just horrible as persons, or unruly as a character trait. Rather, they act out more the worse they feel inside. Perhaps she feels she isn't getting enough connection and so acts out so that you focus on her. Or she senses (children often can sense this very perceptively) the rejection from you and her dad and it makes her feel awful and scared. Sometimes children can act horribly to test whether you still love them even if they do XYZ.

• In those cases, it is important to reassure them that you love them as they are. They are good people - it is just their behaviour that is not acceptable.

• Try to genuinely understand what might underlie say a meltdown. Enforce the boundary ('I won't let you hurt your sister' - calmly move her away from the steps/move sister away to a safe place) but try to remain calm - project calm confidence, not getting triggered out of control yourself. Say something empathetic as well as enforcing the boundary ('It was hard for you that I was focusing on your sister right now, wasn't it? You felt a bit left out.'). Try to understand her point of view and communicate this to her.

• When you get very angry, try to reflect for yourself on what has triggered you so much. Try to calm yourself down, you might well be making each other worse in a vicious cycle. See the situation resulting from both of your actions and feelings, not just as her being the problem.

Yes to above.
It is a particular behaviour that is undesirable (and explain why) - never the child herself. Such a crucial difference.

The child herself is loved and wanted no matter what and you will spend time with her and hug her and smile at her to show that.

Saying that, don’t beat yourself up for losing the plot in the heat of the moment and screeching at her for breaking something when you’ve told her ten times to leave it alone.
But always, always follow up with some closure. Never let her go to bed without a hug from you/her dad. Or to school!!!!!!!!!!!!

And if she won’t respond to your olive branch, simply say kindly that you can understand that she still feels angry, you don’t blame her, but when she’s ready the hug will be there and you look forward to it.

And if you have had a bad day and shouted at her and later feel you could have handled things better, don’t be afraid to tell her that. And that you can understand why she might feel angry with you and you apologise.

Really uncomfortable with the bashing you have received here OP. It's clear you have really tried all the options you know and are reaching out for help and suggestions

Does your SD get 1:1 time with her dad? Or you? She is clearly angry. Upset, jealous and quite rightly so her mum and mums partner have abandoned her. She is sharping your affections and I think excluding her as a punishment maybe reinforcing these feelings

Give her time from you both would be my suggestion? I know that might seem frustrating the way she is behaving but she needs constant reassurance she is loved and part of the family z

@jelly79 yes, we gave her the option staying at her current school with all her friends near where her parents and then Dad used to live or the one 2 minutes down the road which means she gets Dad time on her own from 3:30 to 6 mon-thursday and she chose change schools.
But then her mum wouldnt allow the school move because she knew it was more awkward for us, and we had to go to court to get an order - she finally started her new school Monday gone - we'd been trying since before the summer holidays and she has been taking that out on us since september too
To answer someone elses question 3 years and 18 months old

She sounds an incredibly angry and unhappy little girl, you need to get to the root of why.
I would be worried that she was the victim of abuse tbh, with her behaviour. Or perhaps she is simply heart broken at her step dad figure disappearing from her life.
I would read Oliver James’s book on Love Bombing. She needs to be pulled into the family and understood, or she will soon be an angry and wounded teenager. She is very clearly crying out for someone to see her pain and distress . You say this started when she was 6. That is so little OP. When you have very small children it is easy for older children to seem huge in comparison but six is a very small girl. A very small girl who needed help and support and didn’t get it.

She is crying out for positive attention. What interactions have you had with her today that were loving, fun, fulfilling, how about yesterday, how about your husband? The only way she gets attention is by acting up, and it's become a vicious circle. She is 9, her brain is not developed to that of an adult, you're expecting her to reason and respond like an adult would and it's not working. Time for a complete reset, stop the punishment and love the bejeezus out of her for gods sake!!

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea I mean everything we could hope for, because we had to get the current one investigated for harming her when she came home covered in bruises. She was safe guarded and our police were already to take it forward, but because it happened in a different jurisdiction it was up to the other force who didn't do anything - it was just rough play....who practices pressure points on a small kid?
And yes if we could we would prevent him going anywhere near her but services said if the police say there is no issue, then we would be at fault for not allowing the mandated contact with her mother to take place. Her mothers response in all this was to move him in to hers.
Her mother is a show mother, in that she will only do the normal caring things when someone can see, otherwise SD is left surfing the net by herself, all that we could hope for meant when she was at her mothers, she had someone caring for her properly.
It is worth noting that during the period she had no contact with her mother, her behavior did improve.

And also for the people making out like she eats every meal by herself alone she doesn't. I said if it was something like a BBQ in the summer and she went out of her way to harm her little brother or sister she was sent inside and the BBQ food would be taken to her. So out of the summer this may have happened 2 or 3 times

For everyone who has suggested books or groups to try, we will be getting/joining these. And we have taken on the advice to make the action the bad thing not her, as in it's okay to be jealous, its not okay to then hit

[quote Delfinn12345]@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea I mean everything we could hope for, because we had to get the current one investigated for harming her when she came home covered in bruises. She was safe guarded and our police were already to take it forward, but because it happened in a different jurisdiction it was up to the other force who didn't do anything - it was just rough play....who practices pressure points on a small kid?
And yes if we could we would prevent him going anywhere near her but services said if the police say there is no issue, then we would be at fault for not allowing the mandated contact with her mother to take place. Her mothers response in all this was to move him in to hers.
Her mother is a show mother, in that she will only do the normal caring things when someone can see, otherwise SD is left surfing the net by herself, all that we could hope for meant when she was at her mothers, she had someone caring for her properly.
It is worth noting that during the period she had no contact with her mother, her behavior did improve.

And also for the people making out like she eats every meal by herself alone she doesn't. I said if it was something like a BBQ in the summer and she went out of her way to harm her little brother or sister she was sent inside and the BBQ food would be taken to her. So out of the summer this may have happened 2 or 3 times[/quote]
Ah that is burying the lede a bit, OP! So mum's current boyfriend is (probably) abusing her? Is she still in contact with him? if so, the likelihood of this traumatising your SD and it coming out in her behaviour is very high.

Leaving besides books and parenting for the moment, this situation does seem to be the most urgent to sort out at the moment.

OK so a few things,

Dad needs to step up here she is a seriously traumatised child and he isnt helping

Exclusions don't work for her clearly because if they did you would have seen something by now

Go for a day trip don't big it up don't give her a chance to exclude herself get in the car and go out and unwanted behaviour towards siblings results in a we don't do that and put physical distance between her and siblings by dad walking next to her in-between iyswim dad needs to calmly stop unwanted behaviour and more importantly guide her into appropriate behaviour as a basic example could be push your brother/sister on the swing (she does it roughly etc) no not like that like this (demonstrate) lets stay here for a bit maybe have ice-cream later so not making a "big deal" about the behaviour simply correcting it and moving on no threats of behave or else you get no ice cream etc

Basically move to low pressure the more you make threats the worse it will get because she will then feel she will lose it anyway so what does she have to lose something she has zero chance of getting

We honestly don't know, if we had evidence of abuse we would have services investigating, just like we did when she showed up bruised. I know you will say other forms don't leave as obvious evidence, when services were involved they looked into other forms too. It's complicated as her mother is, if you can believe it with all the things I've said - a social worker - so she can say all the things they want to hear. It's almost like we have to fight the system everytime we need to get something sorted.
If something is going on though it isnt just linked to this BF as her behavior altered before he appeared.
Whatever is going on, some form of psychological disorder, trauma (ongoing or specific) - The trigger was definitely the decent (?) BF (for want of a better term - trying not to use actual names) leaving.

Oh someone commented that I refer to SD as "the SD" or informal, sorry I'm just so used to drafting impersonal court letters involving her mother and us, I'm surprised there isn't more the mother, the father dotted about in my posts - as I said im trying not to use names

Has she been bruised by the current boyfriend? Not the one who left?

This is just shocking. Do you not think her behaviour is a result of an enormous amount of upheaval and trauma? I think you need a credit card/loan/beg borrow to get some family therapy.

I would be surprised if it wasn't, her mother regularly gets the SD pets only to get bored and give them away, she had a dog for a year, 2 cats for a bit, fish that die because her mother forgets to feed them, atm they have love birds - its one of the reasons she got her own fish with us. Her mother has moved 75 miles away and moved houses 4 times, had 3 boyfriends that we know of. It's all very chaotic.
We try to provide a stable environment, one of the reasons she stayed at her old school for so long even though it was 6 miles away from home.
The trigger as I said was the BF (2 back), but that was in 2019, yes we've had a pandemic and all the other stuff going on - she has issues and a lot to process... but she cant go on destroying things, being anti-social and hurting those smaller than herself for entertainment.
Bribes, positive affirmations and or items dont work, neither do punishments.
Her father and I are trying to get her professional help - no we cant afford private we took on large debts just to win custody (5 court battles 6 if you include the school one) - in the mean time we are asking does anyone have suggestions we can try
And trust me if we stopped contact without evidence of abuse her mother would use that to try and reverse the residency order. The senior social worker who helped with the school move, and got the CAMS (camhs?) referral keeps in contact and would do everything in her power if there was something we could act on, but there isn't