At my wit's end with positive parenting 3 year old

[Escapetothecounty]

Hi all

I'm looking for either reassurance or alternatives to our current strategies for handling my 3yo. She is a very emotional and highly strung child which is the total opposite to me (I'm very level headed and calm...but I'm also an adult) so I really struggle with her behaviour and how to manage it.

Some of the time she's a total delight, really happy and funny and sweet. Other days she just seems to wake up in a stinking mood and will melt down at any tiny thing. She still has explosive tantrums (screaming, crying, throwing herself on the floor), though they have reduced to maybe a few times a week rather than multiple per day when she was 2. I feel like she should be growing out of these now (4 in December).

I've always tried hard to follow the positive parenting mantras - I never shout at her and always keep calm when she's losing it as I really feel that adding chaos to the situation doesn't help. But. It's just so difficult sometimes. She can be so rude - we went for a play date yesterday and she decided she didn't want to play with her friend and just kept shouting 'no I DON'T want to play with you' until the other little girl started crying which I found totally mortifying as it was the first time I'd met her parents. I tried to speak to her on her level, ask her to speak kindly and not shout, say it's ok if you want to play on something different but not ok to shout at people etc etc. But sometimes I feel like I'm coming across as too soft but struggle to implement appropriate 'punishments'.

What techniques would you suggest that we could try when she's playing up? She's extremely controlling at the moment, if someone doesn't respond to her immediately (e.g. if I'm talking to someone else at the time or doing something else) she'll get really angry/upset.

Honestly I'm just having one of those days where she's getting under my skin and could do with a bit of help/support/reassurance.

I'm sorry you're feeling overwhelmed today. I clicked on this because I think we take a similar approach to parenting, overall. Your little girl sounds like a typically forthright, spirited 3 year old to me, happy and confident to express her emotions and preferences - you're doing a great job! At the play date, I probably would have taken my son out of the situation sooner. If he's clearly expressed that he doesn't want to be there, personally I wouldn't see the point in keeping him there - unless there were other reasons for staying. I don't see that as being soft, just respectful of my son. There are situations and places that we wouldn't have left just because he said he didn't want to be there but I try to weigh each situation up. I don't have a control comparison but I'm sure that by being flexible on the stuff that doesn't really matter, he understands better when I do hold the line on something.

Have you read any Sarah Ockwell-Smith? There's a FB group if you're interested. She explains really well about age-appropriate child behaviour and the main thing I've taken is managing down my expectations to what is reasonable.

You're right, it's really difficult sometimes. Especially when they change their minds on a sixpence and it's impossible to keep up...

Positive parenting is great in theory, but your DD does need to understand the word 'no'. From you, her parent.

I think you instintively know this as you have written:

"I tried to speak to her on her level, ask her to speak kindly and not shout, say it's ok if you want to play on something different but not ok to shout at people etc etc. But sometimes I feel like I'm coming across as too soft but struggle to implement appropriate 'punishments'."

'On a level' is fine in some circumstances, but honestly sometimes they need an age appropriate bollocking. Go with your instinct here!

I agree with @hamstersarse

Honestly, I instinctively roll my eyes when I hear ‘positive parenting’. Like everyone else sets out to be awful and negative to their children!

Kids need and indeed thrive off boundaries. It’s all very well being respectful of your child’s feelings but what about teaching them to respect others? To the PP who would take their child home from a play date straight away if they say they don’t want to be there, what about teaching them to respect other people’s time and not waste their afternoon by planning to come over and then leaving straight away once it’s too late for them to do something else? Maybe cut it a bit short but being dictated to by a tiny child for no good reason is insanity.

I believe that, while of course every child parent adores their child, to raise decent adults you need to teach children that they aren’t always the centre of the universe and that other people matter too, sometimes you have to compromise etc. That doesn’t mean screaming and shouting at them but by raising a child who is taught they are never wrong, never have to compromise or anything, I honestly think you’re setting yourself up for a nightmare and an unhappy child who will struggle to form friendships.

@MayorGoodwaysChicken Views on parenting automatically get so divisive don't they. It doesn't have to be an either/or - I definitely don't think of other parenting styles as being intentionally awful! We are all trying to do the best for our families. I think there's some misunderstanding about what positive/gentle parenting actually entails, it definitely involves having and holding boundaries, the word "no", and the other things you mention.

Re the playdate, I'm not sure I understand why removing the child would be insanity. The DD got far more wound up, the other child was upset, the mother was mortified, the other parents probably didn't know what to make of it - to me that's not a better outcome than simply calling it a day.

I 100% agree about raising children to be happy, decent adults and I have no concerns whatsoever that my son will be one of them. As I'm sure yours will be.

All three year olds are basically goblins, I cannot be convinced otherwise.

Just ride it out, they do improve.

If she won’t behave, give her a short-term consequence and be prepared to see it through. E.g. no CBeebies this afternoon unless you stand up and speak nicely 5,4, 3, 2, 1…
It won’t work the first couple of times but then she’ll learn you mean what you say. You don’t need to shout or be negative with her - just be the boss.

I have been a nanny for 35 years .

Everybody bring s their children up differently I have never treated any two children the same because what works for one child doesn’t necessarily work for the next child.
I think positive parenting is being a bit overdone you can’t be gentle and kind all the time every child needs boundaries if you occasionally raise your voice not all the time . children generally take notice.

I’m no expert but with mine at that age I’d not have been impressed with them being rude. I’d have probably taken them to one side said she was making the other little girl sad and then paid a lot of attention to the other one. At that age a lot of 3 year olds will still be playing alongside each other so they are still learning and will be for some time. She needs to know she’s upsetting the other child though. Welcome to the friendship ride though. I was shocked how much bloody friend drama there was in reception when my eldest started school.

I think you're expectations might be a bit high - she's only little and finding her way in the world. They can't regulate their emotions like we can, they don't have loads of control over day to day lives and don't have the same tools to cheer themselves up. If I'm tired, I can have a coffee...my DS has nap (which he never wants to do) or power on through as his options.

When we've had a massive tantrum I try to look and work out why and it's often something we've done - he's too tired, or hungry, or we did our trip in an order that was boring or I didn't set out clear expectations. We have clear boundaries and stick to them, DS knows we don't give in on some things (still tries it on though!)

She was horribly rude to her friend and she got zero consequences for it??

3 year olds are hard work.
I absolutely would not have tolerated that behaviour, when we are out at at the park I have a chat with DC and explain the rules and how DC should behave. I also explain that if DC is naughty he will be given 3 warnings and on the 4th warning we wil leave. I've never had to get to the 4th warning but been close many a time. I don't really understand what you mean by positive parenting TBH. You can be positive, use reward charts and have firm boundaries. No need to label a particular parenting style 😁

@ElspethFlashman

She was horribly rude to her friend and she got zero consequences for it??

She isn't being rude - she's 3. Saying she didn't want to play with her, isn't naughty or rude, she's simply saying she doesn't want to. I don't understand the logic of forcing a child to play with another when she just doesn't want to. It would be like me forcing you to sit for coffee with someone you can't stand. She doesn't have the choice in these play dates as she's three - how else is she meant to tell you she's upset/had enough?

Think there is a difference between one child saying to another that they didn't want to play to said child screaming in the other child's face! That's not OK!

What is so wrong, exactly, with your child knowing you are displeased and upset with their behaviour? I never shouted or hit my children, but if their behaviour warranted it, they absolutely knew I wasn't happy with their shanningans. This nonsense of never letting your child know they've upset you is just absurd. They need to know they have crossed boundaries and that certain behaviours are unacceptable. A child who is never disciplined doesn't learn self-control and an awareness that certain choices have unpleasant consequences.

I would have got on her level and said No! You don't shout in faces in a strong voice.
Why do you need to explain that you don't make other people cry. You just say No you don't do that.
My kids learnt pretty young that I meant business, I never have to shout.

Stop over explaining and negotiating with a 3 year old, she doesn’t get it! A sharp “No! That’s rude and you have upset your friend. Stop that!”

Positive parenting has its place but it’s not fair on kids to not teach them boundaries. They can end up with poor social skills and struggle with friendships.

I have the same 3 year old! It's really tough and I find it very hard now I have a baby too. One book I love though is 'how to talk so little kids listen'. It's absolutely fantastic and you can pick it up and put it down as needed. I'm always going back to it.

How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk

Great book. Highly recommend.

Also anything by Dr Carlos Gonzalez - Kiss Me is lovely.

I think I would have tried to work out why she was suddenly so upset and freaked out about playing with the other girl, perhaps there was a way of steering them to an activity where she felt more in her depth. - and could have distracted her til she’d calmed down. With positive parenting it’s important to validate the emotion, and then set the boundary so “I can see you’re upset right now and you don’t have to play if you don’t want to, but I can’t let you shout at X because it’s rude and she’s upset.” You don’t want her to think the other girls upset is more important than her own, or she should squash down her feelings to not embarrass you or she will just get stuck and stressed about them rather than working through them and better self regulating. It sounds like she’s getting there though it must be tough to deal with. You know her best- Is there anything you’re missing in making her feel a bit more secure and able to express herself? Do you have chats about the Day and about things that have come up that she had a tantrum about? Does she feel empowered and have choices, eg choose what she wears, choose between two things/activities/foods each day? Could you help her feel safe more, by directly saying it or having a toy or special place she can retreat to? (Anyway not to say you’re not doing these things already, just trying to share some things that helped for me doing gentle/positive parenting) it’s definitely not the equivalent of being permissive and lacking boundaries!

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I was feeling really down about it all so it's good to hear other people's opinions.

Just to clarify - we do tell her no and hold boundaries, we feel really strongly that she needs consistency so when we say something will/won't happen, she knows that is what will happen. For example, she likes to have her bedroom door open at night which is fine, as long as she is quiet at bedtime. She knows if she messes around once we've said goodnight then it will get shut. Which happened tonight so it got shut straight away, no negotiation.

But when she has these meltdowns/tantrums it honestly doesn't help to talk to her firmly or sharply. If she's screaming/shouting and I talk sharply or raise my voice then she will just parrot back to me and escalate the tantrum. When I said on her level I meant physically, I bend down and look at her when I'm talking to her.

The play date I found difficult as there were a few things at play - did she really not want to play with her or was she feeling nervous (it was the first time we'd met them out of nursery). I didn't want to just take her home, although that was the only consequential punishment I could think of, because the other girl and her mum had arranged their day around meeting us. And about 5 minutes later she snapped out of it as quickly as she snapped into it and was playing nicely.

Probably a massive drip feed but we moved cities 6 weeks ago so new house, nursery, routine etc.

I really don't want to be the reason my child is unhappy and struggles to form friendships but how much should we as parents intervene vs letting them get on with it and learning the social skills themselves? It's exhausting sometimes!

IME positive or gentle parenting can be very appealing if you're the kind of person who struggles with conflict and/or the idea of your child being upset particularly for a "preventable"reason.

I know I've struggled with this a lot. But I found a lot of the advice about consequences, boundaries etc doesn't sit right either, particularly once you've read a lot of the gentle or positive parenting stuff, so it's difficult to find that balance if this is the way you lean.

What's important to remember is that most of the gentle parenting stuff is written with the expectation that you're naturally too authoritarian and need to tone it down. If you lean the other way and try to follow it to the letter it will probably not work, and it will make you feel guilty about having any boundaries at all which is not especially helpful if you are the kind of person who needs reminding that it's good and ok to have boundaries.

Anyway - good resources I've found that fulfill the respectful part I like but without being a total pushover.

RIE - especially Janet Lansbury.
Parent Effectiveness Training
The Whole Brain Child/No Drama Discipline
Ross Greene (better for age 6+)
How to Talk series
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons

This is helpful in terms of the "stern tone" in response to tantrums.

www.janetlansbury.com/2015/12/stop-being-so-stern-what-to-do-instead/

But when she has these meltdowns/tantrums it honestly doesn't help to talk to her firmly or sharply

No, you pick her up and remove her from the situation. Put her down under a tree or on another bench, just away. No negotiation, no trying to reason with her as shes 3 she cannot reason. You tell her you are unhappy with her behaviour so she can sit there until she is ready to apologise and be better behaved. Then you ignore her until she does it. If she gets up, you put her back. No interaction.

She needs to understand the difference between "mummy is talking to me" and "mummy is upset with me" and saying to her its okay if she doesnt want to play what she hears is "its okay".

Sorry OP, you gotta get a backbone here and do what needs to be done.

I tried to speak to her on her level, ask her to speak kindly and not shout, say it's ok if you want to play on something different but not ok to shout at people etc etc. But sometimes I feel like I'm coming across as too soft but struggle to implement appropriate 'punishments'."

You might be using too many words, and overwhelming her brain. She's only just learning language, you have six words to get the message across before she hears blah, blah, blah, blah. Six words. Keep instructions short.

I just wanted to say you sound like a brilliant mum and your daughter is a typical threenager! Positive parenting is serving you well! Do not let a fear of other people's reactions change your parenting style. She is only now learning about big feelings and has the most basic skills in identifying and expressing them. I would focus on helping her label them and soothing her as you are.