At my wit's end with positive parenting 3 year old

[Escapetothecounty]

Hi all

I'm looking for either reassurance or alternatives to our current strategies for handling my 3yo. She is a very emotional and highly strung child which is the total opposite to me (I'm very level headed and calm...but I'm also an adult) so I really struggle with her behaviour and how to manage it.

Some of the time she's a total delight, really happy and funny and sweet. Other days she just seems to wake up in a stinking mood and will melt down at any tiny thing. She still has explosive tantrums (screaming, crying, throwing herself on the floor), though they have reduced to maybe a few times a week rather than multiple per day when she was 2. I feel like she should be growing out of these now (4 in December).

I've always tried hard to follow the positive parenting mantras - I never shout at her and always keep calm when she's losing it as I really feel that adding chaos to the situation doesn't help. But. It's just so difficult sometimes. She can be so rude - we went for a play date yesterday and she decided she didn't want to play with her friend and just kept shouting 'no I DON'T want to play with you' until the other little girl started crying which I found totally mortifying as it was the first time I'd met her parents. I tried to speak to her on her level, ask her to speak kindly and not shout, say it's ok if you want to play on something different but not ok to shout at people etc etc. But sometimes I feel like I'm coming across as too soft but struggle to implement appropriate 'punishments'.

What techniques would you suggest that we could try when she's playing up? She's extremely controlling at the moment, if someone doesn't respond to her immediately (e.g. if I'm talking to someone else at the time or doing something else) she'll get really angry/upset.

Honestly I'm just having one of those days where she's getting under my skin and could do with a bit of help/support/reassurance.

I’m not anti ‘positive parenting’ and use the approaches, but do shout when the situation warrants it (child not listening / impending danger). A combo is best, adaptEd to the situation.

Children/ adults I know who have been ‘positively parented’ are demanding. They rule the roost and decide what the family does, when. Eg, at a family party, older child asks to go after 30 mins, parent negotiates +20 min and they leave after 1 hour. Personally I couldn’t live this way, but each to their own. They’re never forced out of their comfort zone, don’t try things they’re not sure about. Become less enthusiastic about treats, because they get them all the time. And never learn to deal with boredom or self directed play/ pleasure.

Ultimately I don’t think it helps the kids become happy, successful adults. Someone close to me is an absolute pain in the arse because he was pandered to throughout childhood due to propensity to tantrum (no SEN). As an adult he doesn’t really take pleasure in much and is incredibly difficult- never compromises and never happy. Of course, this could be personality ... but I’m convinced a childhood of pandering has made him less resilient.

I can definitely see patterns among those I know. Those who had ‘stricter’ upbringing seem to be able to rub along with people better, compromise and take more pleasure in life.

I think in future it could be very difficult working with children who have been parented this way. If they have grown up thinking they are in control, it will be quite difficult for them to compromise/ negotiate with others. In the end, it might work against them in life. These types of behaviours can be very difficult to unpick.

Just to add, my focus in parenting is around encouraging gratitude. I truly think this is the route to happiness and positive mental attitude, which I believe will give my children the best chance of a leading a happy healthy life.

@Bluebellsinparadise. I agree. I think there are dangers in being brought up to believe that the world revolves around you.

Like all things, it's a balance. Yes, we don't want to raise overly compliant children who are 'people-pleasers' and struggle to set appropriate personal boundaries in their relationships with others. But neither do we want to raise the children who are constantly irritating, ride roughshod over other people's personal boundaries, take them for granted and demand attention the whole time.

I also use many 'positive parenting' techniques but have steadily been getting tougher with my DC over the past few months. They have been used to a lot of individual attention from us in lockdown and haven't had all that many playdates with other children (although they do go to nursery). Now that we're going out more and doing more playdates, I've been noticing certain behaviours which, although not untypical for a 3 year old, are unacceptable to me. Snatching things, being dictatorial, trying to direct the play and sulking or kicking off when they don't get their own way. Also, interrupting when I'm talking to other adults with a constant stream of "Mummy, Mummy, Mummy" if I don't immediately give them attention. Having gently tried to discourage this behaviour multiple times with no effect, I'm afraid I'm now very clear with my DC that this behaviour will not be tolerated.

@Goldbar this is good/interesting to hear and lots of what your last post said chimed with me. I assume you've found it effective to be tougher then? Do you just tell them firmly or have you used things like time out?

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's responded so far, it's been great to see the range of responses and has certainly given me food for thought. Lots of books and resource recommendations as well which is much appreciated.

@Goldbar Exactly, you’ve hit the nail on the head... it’s about balance. I see two extremes (children seen not heard Vs child-centred 100% of the time) and I strive to be somewhere in the middle.

The inability to hold an adult conversation around your children is a sure sign that you’re out of balance (especially among mums this is very common). I don’t buy that it’s because their children are more demanding / difficult (no SEN). Parents who put their children first all the time are clearly coming from a place of kindness, but the children are missing out on opportunities to engage with other children/ adults/ the environment/ self directed play and adventures.

It’s our job as parents to create independent, resilient and socialised people.

There's some great advice here. Reading your update OP, you've obviously got this spot on because your DD played happily after she'd had her moment. Fair play.

Thinking more about it, my son only ever has meltdowns for one of 3 reasons. Hunger, tiredness, and to a lesser extent, fear/uncertainty. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes after pre-school if he's knackered, for example.

When he's upset the easiest and quickest way to diffuse it is by sort of narrating what's happening, like other posters have said. For example, "you're upset because you really wanted another biscuit. I understand, you really like those biscuits! They are crunchy aren't they..." etc. It works well with him anyway, and he would not get another biscuit.

Play dates - absolutely yes have activities planned. Play park, nature trail, scooting, small world play already set up, etc.

Separately, I am still surprised by the posters that view positive/gentle parenting as allowing children to do whatever they want, whenever they want, without any boundaries or consequences, etc. This is simply not what it's about! Permissive parenting/pandering is not the same as positive/gentle parenting.

And shouting - yes absolutely I do. When it's a safety situation (if he, I, someone else may about to be hurt) of course I do. There's a strong argument for showing children that it's ok to have and express emotions, and that includes fear, anger, etc. Remaining calm all of the time just isn't realistic.

"It’s our job as parents to create independent, resilient and socialised people."

Absolutely. That's what we are all aiming for!

In my experience, a lot of how we think in theory is the best way of parenting, doesnt always match exactly with what an individual child needs or even what the parent needs which is also valid as you are half of that relationship.
Someone else above mentioned it being a very appealing parenting style for those who are naturally conflict averse. I really felt that, as sometimes I think my panic at high conflict situations means that im really taking the longest and most confusing route for my children to learn certain things.

The reason I asked OP how she plays with others in general, is because my eldest son would have frequent meltdowns over all sorts that seemed to be much more extreme than most other childrens I knew, but then he was diagnosed with ASD. My daughter also was prone to this and was also diagnosed with asd later on down the line.
Obviously toddler tantrums are normal too in neurotypical kids, but if you think they are excessive or sensory based or she struggles with social situations, then its not a massively unusual thing either, but might affect how the best way to manage it is.
Also my own ASD diagnosis recently made me look at my own parenting and my own aversion to conflict and why things like hierarchy doesnt come naturally to me.

Children do need to know that youre in charge though, and while they do need control in their lives, they also need to be able to have other people being clear with them what are acceptable ways to conduct yourself and that other peoples rights do conflict with our own and how we learn to compromise if we want them to play with us or spend time with us

Goldbar this is good/interesting to hear and lots of what your last post said chimed with me. I assume you've found it effective to be tougher then? Do you just tell them firmly or have you used things like time out?

We're still working on it. Progress is steady but painfully slow.

For the interrupting when I'm talking to other adults, I take a four stage approach. The first is a gentle, "Mummy's talking to X, sweetie, please wait until we've finished and then we can talk/play". The second is a sharper "As I said [DC name], Mummy is talking to X. Please wait". The third is a distinctly cross and shouty, "Mummy and X and talking. Be quiet please". If they still continue after that, I will take them aside for a proper telling-off and a time-out. This might sound harsh, but interrupting adults having a conversation is a red rag to a bull for me. I find it incredibly rude and irritating and I'm hoping to stamp it out in my DC before they're school age.

For the not playing nicely with other children, it depends on the behaviour:

• Pushing, hitting etc. - unacceptable. Immediate time-out.
• Boisterous behaviour around smaller children, shouting, screaming, snatching - warning and then time-out if the behaviour continues.
• Trying to boss other children around or trying to dictate the activity - I generally wait a bit to see if this is a pattern of behaviour or whether they settle down to play nicely. My DC is quite assertive and other children are often happy to join in with what they suggest. If they're interrupting another child already playing nicely (for example, playing in the sandpit and they want the other child to come on the seesaw), I'll say, "X was already doing this. Do you want to join in with X?" or "Why don't you go on the seesaw and X might come and join you later once they've finished in the sandpit?". If my DC ignores me and still tries to dictate the play and the other child isn't happy with this, I take them aside to sit with me until they can play nicely.
• Ignoring/excluding other children. I'm afraid I just say, "fine then. Play on your own". If it's being done deliberately and meanly, not because my child genuinely wants some alone time (this is the "I don't want to play with X, he's a silly poopy-face" sort of thing), I'll usually say, "Well, I'm sure X doesn't want to play with a child who is being so horrid so you go away then". Then I'll go and play with X myself and completely ignore my DC. The other child usually enjoys the adult attention and my DC soon feels left out and comes back.

I think the idea of using long extensive narratives with a 3 year old is barking - “oh look you made Sally sad because you shouted at her, how does that make you feel/what should we do about that?” (I paraphrase) - they don’t generally have the emotional brainwork & development in place to engage with that, understand it and make the right decision.

@6fingerkitkat one of my kids loves it and shrieks for more, one (the one with ASD) hates it. I obviously don't tickle the one who hates it. I used to like it as a kid so it's not hated by everyone.

Anyway, this is not a pro/anti tickle thread. I don't think it will help the OP.

Glad you got some resolution OP, it’s never easy what ever style of parenting you choose. However I’m still baffled by the people who think gentle/positive parenting is a bad thing, or have got it mixed up with lax parenting where you do nothing at all.

It’s not just letting kids do what they like— it’s understanding that behaviour is communication, not a good/bad binary. The goal isn’t to avoid tantrums or conflict to have an easier life it’s to engage with and help your child understand their tantrums afterwards and feel safe and supported by you.

To do this we speak to children in a respectful way, model healthy communication and boundaries, engage with them as feeling beings who are developing, focus attention on “good” behaviour and support them through the “bad” behaviour, instead of abandoning them on the naughty step!

I’m worried by the people who describe situations where they’re basically losing their temper, or playing a power game over not liking being interrupted, or shouting in their kids face to tell them we don’t shout in peoples faces. If someone treated you like that, would you like it? Would you feel safe and cared for by that person? Is it setting a good example to them? Obviously the answer is no, so why is it considered healthy parenting?

Gentle/positive parenting is growing with your child, teaching them to be socially and emotionally aware and valuing empathy, definitely not coercing and controlling through withholding attention or affection, which can cause significant psychological damage. We don’t want to raise parent/people pleasers who don’t understand their own emotions or their caregivers reactions to them when they get overwhelmed. We want to raise people who are self aware, can ask for help and can assert their boundaries while understanding and playing nicely with others.

And to people who say kids don’t understand, they understand tone, aggression/ lost tempers and safety. By the age of 3 kids understand 1000+ words, but obviously it’s up to you to adjust your words to what you think will be best understood and approach them when they’re calm enough to engage with you.

It’s not perfect but having been on the receiving end of some well intentioned but ultimate unhealthy parenting, this works for me and hope it’s a bit more of an explanation to those dismissing positive parenting as soft or silly.

Loads of really good books recommended already, just wanted to say “how toddlers thrive” should also be on the list

@littlejalapeno. I understand the rationale behind positive/gentle parenting which you're describing. The problem I have with it is that it puts the child (your child) at the centre of everything - everything revolves around them and understanding their feelings and supporting them through their behaviour. What about the other adults and children who they're interacting with? Are they not important? Sometimes, a "misbehaving" child needs to be removed from the situation and sent to sit out by themselves so the rest of the group can get on with what they're doing.

It also sounds exhausting. Often, children just need to behave and you don't have time to engage at length with them or focus on "good" behaviour - you just need the "bad" behaviour to stop.

My technique would be to leave if she does not do as she is told. If she is overwhelmed it will take her out of it. If she wants to stay she will learn quickly that mum means what she says. 1 warning and then leave explaining we are leaving because you did x when I told you not to.

@littlejalapeno Positive and gentle parenting is definitely not in itself a bad approach, I’d love to commit to it. But I see a lot of parents following it in a half arsed way, and struggling with positive discipline approaches .... so it leads easily into permissive parenting. Positive parenting approaches take lots of time and patience - something that can be lacking on a daily basis when you put full time jobs / other family members into the mix. It also takes a lot of skill and high levels of emotional intelligence which many parents themselves would need to learn.

Well done if you’re managing to do it well. In theory it’s great, but in the real world it is unrealistic for many parents to follow. So they do it badly and the result isn’t great for kids and society unfortunately.

If you think gentle or positive parenting is putting the child on a pedestal and constantly beaming special attention at them then you've completely misunderstood how it works.

It's nothing particularly special or different, most parenting styles have a number of steps before anything punitive or shaming comes in to play, the only difference is that this window of steering the behaviour in a different direction before you get to outright disapproval is wider.

The problem is it can be hard to find good resources about it because particularly online, a lot of resources have boiled it down to "praise the good, ignore the bad" or "when your child doesn't cooperate, lead them gently by the arm and explain what you expect" which had me in tears of frustration when my first child was 3 or 4 because it's not sufficient!

If you already know and are confident in stating your boundaries then you don't really need the extra help and support but also you probably aren't drawn to the idea of gentle parenting because it will sound wishy washy to you.

It's the parents who aren't confident in setting boundaries and getting their needs met who need more guidance but gentle parenting is often not set up for them.

It's changing now which is very good. But not before gentle parenting got this reputation associating it with lax or permissive parenting.

I think again there’s some people trying to make gentle/positive parenting over complicated or seem precious…

The child isn’t always and exhaustingly the centre of attention. Not at all. Making the child feel Important ddoesn’t mean putting them on a pedestal where the child calls the shots, that’s certainly not healthy either. It means making your child feel they matter to you and they can make mistakes and have difficulties without being rejected. And engaging them instead of rejecting them doesn’t take up hours of the day or spoil them either. They’re still expected to fall in line with the rest of the family and social groups. We’re just helping them understand their emotions and how that impacts themselves and others, it’s staying calm yourself so you can regulate them.

It’s also about being consistent in your reactions. Children need predictability and routines to feel secure, this includes how you engage them. Eg small children who can’t express frustration so they hit can very easily turn into adults who can’t express frustration so they hit. So we help them understand that they feel frustrated(cross), the reason why and why they react that way and that feeing hurt doesn’t mean they can hurt others. The result is they feel reassured by your presence and consistent response, stop hitting to express and self sooth.

I agree with the pp who said that a lot of adults have poor psychological awareness and lack robust emotional intelligence. That’s why I want to parent this way, so my child has a chance of being resilient and not a narcissist or people pleaser who is easily manipulated by narcissists. The healthy, assertive yet empathetic middle ground!

It does mean doing the psychological work on yourself and letting go of some ego, which might be hard to do. I certainly struggle with it at times. I also work and my mum has stage 4 cancer, so very much living in the real world. Just trying not to bring negativity and struggle of my day to the table when parenting my child. It’s not his fault I had a bad day at work so why should he bear the brunt of it? Not saying anyone who has responded does this, just what my intentions and struggles are.

Sure some parents half arse things, we’re all experienced in that, no matter what type of parenting you follow. If you’ve witnessed other parents half arsing and know 100% they’re doing positive parenting, perhaps they’re embarrassed by the child’s behaviour and by being observed so don’t push the issue? I don’t think it’s true that you automatically end up half arsing positive parenting because it’s too demanding. The more you put it in practice the more automatic and consistent it gets in some ways.

At the end of the day you are your child’s parent, you’re their safe space and teacher. They should be your focus. That attitude is not incompatible with also having other relationships or seeing other people socially and isn’t just making everything about the child. It’s building an emotionally healthy foundation and trust.

“What about the other adults and children who they're interacting with? Are they not important?”

It’s strange to have to chose between your child and others and not choose your child though? Surely you’re showing them how to interact with those people? Treating your child like they’re important and secure helps more in the long run than rejecting them because you value the other peoples perceptions? I’m really struggling to understand what the pp meant here… yeah tantrums are awkward and embarrassing for the parent, that doesn’t mean we repress the tantrum out of the child. That might help the parent short term but rejecting your children when they are struggling emotionally or having a tantrum, by using time outs or naught steps, or criticise the child in front of them to others, means that when they are emotionally struggling in the future they will reject you instead of turning to you. They will be more likely to identify with their peer group and seek validation and safety there, or turn inwards and self hate/harm. That’s not healthy as they and their peers are also emotionally immature so can’t support each other and that codependency will lead to unhealthy and damaging behaviour done for likes and acceptance. But if you stay and support them while they are struggling (taking them for a time out but staying with them and engaging), lets them know there’s nothing they can do that will push you away. Then they’re more likely to come to you when they struggle when they’re older and you stand a better chance of keeping them safe and emotionally healthy… not (insta/tiktok) narcissists looking for attention from followers because they didn’t get it from their parents, or expressing frustration with violence because they’re still stuck in a toddler mentality for example (worst case scenarios)

I know we all want the best for our children, but please try to understand positive parenting before dismissing it as too much hard work. It has a lot of psychological grounding and is worth it in the long run.

One thing to remember is that 3 and 4 year olds need a completely different response than a 2 year old. Their understanding of the situation is much better, and they can anticipate consequences to their actions (or no consequences, if that is usually what happens).

I think people are just sharing their observations of parents / children who follow positive/ gentle parenting approaches. We can objectively see the results of the approach, whereas if you’re living it (and doing it well) you can’t be as objective maybe?

My reading of this is that parents try their best to parent the child they have. Positive/gentle parenting may work for some children but, for others, it's not so effective.

Also, don't we all set out to be positive and gentle in our interactions with our children? I certainly don't get up in the morning and intend to be negative and harsh with my DC .

Ultimately, I do think a large part of the role of a parent is to teach their child to behave in line with age-appropriate expectations of their behaviour as far as possible.

And sometimes it is necessary to secure compliance even at the expense of being "harsh" - children cannot be violent or engage in bullying behaviour towards others, run around near roads or in airports or cause chaos in restaurants and cafes. That behaviour just needs to be stopped as quickly as possible even if it means being sharp with your child.

It’s strange to have to chose between your child and others and not choose your child though? Surely you’re showing them how to interact with those people? Treating your child like they’re important and secure helps more in the long run than rejecting them because you value the other peoples perceptions? I’m really struggling to understand what the pp meant here…

My child is the most important person in the world to me, clearly, but that does not mean putting them first 100% of the time. I make all major life decisions with their benefit in mind, but I don't think it's unacceptable for them to learn that, in day-to-day interactions, we sometimes have to put other people first. So yes, they may want mummy's attention but it won't hurt them to wait 5 minutes until I've finished talking to my friend. My time and my friend's time are important as well - it's not all about my child. And if we invite someone over to our house to play, we are hosting them and their comfort and enjoyment is important to us. So we offer them a snack first, ask them what they'd like to play with and share our toys and play nicely. We don't snatch and grab and storm off in a huff, call them names and refuse to share. And if my DC engages in that behaviour (which they have in the past), they find themselves ignored while the rest of us have a nice time.

One thing to remember is that 3 and 4 year olds need a completely different response than a 2 year old. Their understanding of the situation is much better, and they can anticipate consequences to their actions (or no consequences, if that is usually what happens).

I agree. At 2, my child was more likely to behave badly because they were tired or overwhelmed by situations so cuddles and reassurance were the obvious response. Now, at 3-4, a lot of it is deliberately pushing boundaries and power play.

You can do positive parenting but you need to have firm boundaries and consequences that you stick to as well. Yes sometimes children have big explosive emotions that they are learning to handle but sometimes they are just little rude dicks that push the limits, and so they need firm boundaries. Also just to say you can do positive parenting and raise your voice. Children respond very well to changes in tone and sometimes a firm loud no or stop doss the trick. I find a good tactic is to prep before you play. So before you go to the park, discuss what you expect from her. So I would say I expect there to be no pushing or hitting etc, to take turns on the swing and then outline what will happen if it happens. I usually do a time in on my knee, where they can't go and play or I put the toy in time out. Then most importantly stick to it.

Now, at 3-4, a lot of it is deliberately pushing boundaries and power play.

Definitely, and if I'm honest I tend to be a bit slow to notice when DS has advanced a stage, so I parent ineffectually until I catch up!

No comment on the positive parenting side of things but I do have experience of the tantrums. One of my DC was also emotional and highly strung. At age 3, epic tantrums were several times a week, if not daily. I tried pretty much every strategy and would say that with those kinds of tantrums, the best thing is no communication at all while it is ongoing, either positive or negative. Remain calmly in the vicinity so they know you are there but don't engage - it will normally just worsen or prolong the tantrum. In the midst of a tantrum, the child is out of control and not responsive to what you are saying. After they have calmed down is the time to have a quiet chat with them about how they are feeling and what they might do differently next time. There shouldn't be anger or punishment for the tantrum as the child likely already feels ashamed. On other occasions, such as being rude to a friend, a firm "no" is a good thing. Some things don't need a discussion, just a swift reprimand.