At my wit's end with positive parenting 3 year old

[Escapetothecounty]

Hi all

I'm looking for either reassurance or alternatives to our current strategies for handling my 3yo. She is a very emotional and highly strung child which is the total opposite to me (I'm very level headed and calm...but I'm also an adult) so I really struggle with her behaviour and how to manage it.

Some of the time she's a total delight, really happy and funny and sweet. Other days she just seems to wake up in a stinking mood and will melt down at any tiny thing. She still has explosive tantrums (screaming, crying, throwing herself on the floor), though they have reduced to maybe a few times a week rather than multiple per day when she was 2. I feel like she should be growing out of these now (4 in December).

I've always tried hard to follow the positive parenting mantras - I never shout at her and always keep calm when she's losing it as I really feel that adding chaos to the situation doesn't help. But. It's just so difficult sometimes. She can be so rude - we went for a play date yesterday and she decided she didn't want to play with her friend and just kept shouting 'no I DON'T want to play with you' until the other little girl started crying which I found totally mortifying as it was the first time I'd met her parents. I tried to speak to her on her level, ask her to speak kindly and not shout, say it's ok if you want to play on something different but not ok to shout at people etc etc. But sometimes I feel like I'm coming across as too soft but struggle to implement appropriate 'punishments'.

What techniques would you suggest that we could try when she's playing up? She's extremely controlling at the moment, if someone doesn't respond to her immediately (e.g. if I'm talking to someone else at the time or doing something else) she'll get really angry/upset.

Honestly I'm just having one of those days where she's getting under my skin and could do with a bit of help/support/reassurance.

Bluebell I understand your perspective but I can say the same to you- perhaps you can’t be objective because you are stuck in your ways too? The kids I see acting out are the ones who’s parents reject and undermine them, and they always seem like so much harder work for their peers too- bossy and disruptive in negative ways for example. I know someone who constantly complains about the child’s behaviour in front of the child and is quite controlling in general, the child’s peers call her bossy and she swings from apathy to aggression to anxiety, further exasperating her mum, and causing more rejection. Not nice for anyone, but going to make future therapists some cash one day I guess.

“You can do positive parenting but you need to have firm boundaries and consequences that you stick to as well.”

The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Positive parenting teaches firm boundaries and consequences that are age appropriate, so there’s a bit of a misunderstanding there still.

Biz boz, that sounds like what I would do and what is recommended by positive parenting, even if it’s not something you are interested in/know about.

@Bluebellsinparadise

I think people are just sharing their observations of parents / children who follow positive/ gentle parenting approaches. We can objectively see the results of the approach, whereas if you’re living it (and doing it well) you can’t be as objective maybe?

I think the problem with this is that you end up with a skewed sample. If you're observing someone struggling with parenting who then confides "Well I can't do time out because I'm doing gentle parenting so I don't know what to do" then naturally, you'll assume that gentle parenting is the problem. And probably whatever half hearted version they are doing is. But you might know plenty of people who believe in it as a theory, and never even realise because they are managing their DC's behaviour just fine apart from the bad days that everyone has.

Like I said before, it's not that "normal parenting" is parents "setting out to be harsh and negative", it's simply a belief that negative, shaming, punitive responses are in general not helpful in getting children to change behaviour, and/or that they might work to stop behaviour but the cons outweigh the pros. That it's possible to hold boundaries and limits without resorting to those tools. The difference (I think) is that traditionally it has been felt these things are useful/necessary sometimes in terms of being aversive/having the negative experience (of shame or disapproval or punishment) attached to the behaviour we don't want the child to repeat. But over the generations, the strength of that negative response has lessened - these days parents are more likely to remove privileges or use exclusion (e.g. time out) than physical pain for example, and it works just as well or better, provided you are consistent and back it up with encouragement of the right thing etc. And we are also less likely to jump straight to punishment or shame for "lesser" things than previous generations, only when it is something more serious, which again all improves trust and connection between adult and child which perhaps wasn't something that was emphasised generations ago.

The gentle or positive parenting theory just takes it a step further and says hang on, what if this kind of thing isn't necessary at all. What if those in between things like encouraging/scaffolding the correct behaviour and connection/relationship is enough? So for 95% of day to day parenting you wouldn't notice any difference. It's only on the occasion that a child is really acting out that you'd see any difference in the response. And possibly a difference in what is happening at an earlier stage - whereas someone who has punishment as a tool for extremis up their sleeve might use a kind of warning tone to let their child know they are coming close to the line, someone who doesn't use punishment might not, and that might come across as lax, but it doesn't mean they aren't dealing with the behaviour.

@bizboz

No comment on the positive parenting side of things but I do have experience of the tantrums. One of my DC was also emotional and highly strung. At age 3, epic tantrums were several times a week, if not daily. I tried pretty much every strategy and would say that with those kinds of tantrums, the best thing is no communication at all while it is ongoing, either positive or negative. Remain calmly in the vicinity so they know you are there but don't engage - it will normally just worsen or prolong the tantrum. In the midst of a tantrum, the child is out of control and not responsive to what you are saying. After they have calmed down is the time to have a quiet chat with them about how they are feeling and what they might do differently next time. There shouldn't be anger or punishment for the tantrum as the child likely already feels ashamed. On other occasions, such as being rude to a friend, a firm "no" is a good thing. Some things don't need a discussion, just a swift reprimand.

This. My DS was like this when he was this age. My childminder gave me this advice but added that I shouldn’t look at him directly if I did need to say something. He is a lovely 15 year old now. I think reasoning with a 3 year old is fruitless. Offer choice etc when they are happy. Give them short thrift when agitated.

@brogueish

I'm sorry you're feeling overwhelmed today. I clicked on this because I think we take a similar approach to parenting, overall. Your little girl sounds like a typically forthright, spirited 3 year old to me, happy and confident to express her emotions and preferences - you're doing a great job! At the play date, I probably would have taken my son out of the situation sooner. If he's clearly expressed that he doesn't want to be there, personally I wouldn't see the point in keeping him there - unless there were other reasons for staying. I don't see that as being soft, just respectful of my son. There are situations and places that we wouldn't have left just because he said he didn't want to be there but I try to weigh each situation up. I don't have a control comparison but I'm sure that by being flexible on the stuff that doesn't really matter, he understands better when I do hold the line on something.

Have you read any Sarah Ockwell-Smith? There's a FB group if you're interested. She explains really well about age-appropriate child behaviour and the main thing I've taken is managing down my expectations to what is reasonable.

You're right, it's really difficult sometimes. Especially when they change their minds on a sixpence and it's impossible to keep up...

I would have felt that was incredibly rude if you had done that to us on a play date.

There is many times my dd needed a 'time out' on a play date. I used to take a colouring book and pens so she could sit and colour, which usually meant they would both sit and colour.

You don't need to leave because your three year old demands it, you just need to try a different approach, I think your setting him up for very short friendships in the future.

OP, my eldest is 26, parenting has come a long way since then. My youngest is 5 so lots of changing advice.

I like gentle parenting, but it really isn't a one size fits all. My biggest go to when dd2 & 3 where starting to play up was a cuddle away from every one. Even at home if I could see she had got out of bed the wrong way we would sit on the couch and just cuddle because I knew that if I didn't we would clash. However if she had behaved in a way I didn't want her to she would be told.

eg.. We were toilet training. I never ever wanted to make a fuss if she wet herself and I didn't. Even if she had been playing and I had reminded her to go and have a wee because I could see she needed one - then wet her self. I was alway calm.

Then one day as she stood talking to me at the side of the chair she just weed on the carpet whilst looking at me. She got told off and she never did it again.

If she has an accident during night its not an issue. However if she tries to get in bed with out going to the toilet or pretends that she has because she can't be arsed having a wee - she gets told.

At the play date, I probably would have taken my son out of the situation sooner. If he's clearly expressed that he doesn't want to be there, personally I wouldn't see the point in keeping him there - unless there were other reasons for staying. I don't see that as being soft, just respectful of my son.

You see, this is the bit I just can't get on board with. Yes, it's respectful of your son, but it seems incredibly disrespectful of the other child and parent. They've given up their time to come and play with your son and yet you're giving your son the impression that they're essentially dispensible and can be waved away as soon as he's fed up with them. He has all the power and they're there on his sufferance.

I ask my DC before arranging a playdate whether they would like to play with the child in question. But once I've arranged it, it's a commitment and I expect them to carry it through and behave nicely.

I still think 3-4 is little though. Executive function is still pretty poor (hence all the interrupting!) and theory of mind (the ability to put yourself in someone else's position) doesn't kick in fully until 5. Expectations have to be age appropriate and I wouldn't expect a 3yo to properly understand that someone else has given up their time (and what that means) at all. A 7yo can do that, a 3yo can't.

Most of the world doesn't agonise over parenting 'approach'. Children model what they see, so if they see you being kind and nice and respectful of others they will, in general, get there.

Also I would never mind if a friend said that it looked like their kid was finding it all a bit much and could we pick up again another day. It's a playdate, not an endurance test. I wish I'd done that more as my eldest was finding it too much with her ASD. The most respectful thing for everyone would have been to cut it short. I don't want to see a friend struggling with their kid all day either. My younger child is generally great at playdates so I'd have a bit of a different approach, but we all have bad days.

@littlejalapeno Thank you so much for the book rec up thread. I've been reading it and it really resonates

@Goldbar You have described exactly how I feel when friends do this to me and my child. It actually happens quite a lot. My child definitely feels rejected on hearing the other child whine “can we go home now... I’m bored?” after hardly any time at all. I don’t doubt that the other parent feels a bit embarrassed, but they still go ahead and follow their child’s lead, hot footing it home. Meanwhile we’ve given up an afternoon for people who don’t value our time.

My child and I might have made an effort setting up toys/ food etc, only to be rejected which does hurt. I’m not talking about toddlers here, but primary age children.

I must be a mug because I continue to invite families and agree to meeting up. Often they do have fun. My child shares/ doesn’t have strops/ doesn’t whine about going home/ thinks about others eg if they’re a bit shy will go up and ask what they want to do. I do know it’s futile for me to pass judgment on other families, because all parents/ children are different. However I definitely feel that our feelings are not taken into consideration and that doesn’t make us feel great.