Feminism and me

[morningpaper]

After spending the first three decades of my life being a raving feminist, I can't help wonder WTF? when it comes to being a mum.

Basically my skills (in order of usage) are: cleaning for DP and DD, cooking for DP and DD, washing for DP and DD, Microsoft network technician (0% of time).

After an exhausting days cleaning/cooking/ washing, once I've settled into bed to read my (imported) copy of MS. magazine, I wonder what's the point? What useful lesson has feminism really taught me?

I noticed at a recent gathering of mummy-friends that I was the only 'Ms.' and when I commented on this (may have been a tad drunk) all my (intelligent) friends said things like "Well I like people knowing I'm married!" and it made me feel VERY depressed to think I was raising a daughter for ... what kind of future? Probably the same as mine - cooking, cleaning, and washing - all while being (of course) very enlightened and feminist about the whole thing.

Does anyone else worry about this... or am I letting the post-election blues get to me?!?

I think part of it is about choice ie you are able to make the decision to be a sahm or have a career.
Personally a small part of the reason I work is that I want my dd and ds to see that.

"What useful lesson has feminism really taught me?"

That everything you're doing has equal value to your partner's contribution, that it's just as important, and that it still requires a mind and hard work? My grandmother's generation sure thought that the man's role was inevitably more valuable, we've moved far beyond that nonsense, at least.

Does anyone else feel like Mrs. is more formal than Ms.? Gets you a little more respect, like being more of a grown-up....? Not that things should be that way, but I like the formality of Mrs.

I used to always be a Ms., but have slipped in to a Mrs. habit when I use my husband's name as mine. But I still use my maiden name for work reasons -- but that's with a Dr. if I'm really demanding respect/being shirty about something. .... so the Ms. got lost in the cracks, somewhere!

Yes I agree.... my problem is that I like older men so the mixture of older + man = big large fat wallet, which is all very nice, but does mean that I end up as primary carer.

I do work a couple of days a week which I LOVE and DP wants to reduce his hours if we have a #2 so that I can work another day, which will be just MARVELLOUS (especially as I will have one less day at home with 2 children, bwahaha!).

I don't know what the answer is really. Part of my frustration is that I like to have dinner as a family at 6pm when DP gets back from work, but that means that I have to cook it every night. That really annoys me but I can't see a way around it.

(By the way slightly OT but I do like the way that in Peppa Pig it's the mummy pig who works at the computer all day. )

Zebra: lol! Wish I was a Dr. - definitely having the final say on the title issue!

Agree with your points. Really hope that one day DP will be able to work part-time so that we BOTH understand how much work and stress is involved in childcare. He talks the talk but I want him to walk the walk (over the lego and puddles of wee).

I'm more organised than DH; I do the meals because if I left it to him the kids are screaming and climbing walls by the time he gets around to cooking.
[DH's retort, at least when he cooks it tastes half-decent]

actually, I would succumb to the temptation to feed them fish fingers every night if I didn't prepare most the meal early in the day, so that's it, I'm stuck with cooking since I'm such a snob about what they eat.

Cleaning -- we now pay the neighbour. She does all the grotty weekly jobs (toilets) and I told her flat out she's doing DH's share. He can pay for her to do it, instead. That's cool by me.

[DH's retort: at least I can do the washing up properly] -- which he does do... er, mostly.

And since I'm at home most the day, and the mess bothers me more, maybe it makes sense that I do most of the tidying. It isn't always about who's female or male.

For me, feminism is a big part of my relationship in that I expect equality. I wouldn't have married a man who didn't understand that. In fact, I've never even dated a man who didn't understand it and embrace it.

Aloha: Our life was always like that BEFORE children... but now it isn't. DP gets back from high-profile stressful job, and Mon-Weds studies for work-related stuff in evenings. I can't really LEAVE the cleaning/washing for him to do because he doesn't finish working until 10ish. I tried leaving some cleaning recently but ended up sitting around reading the paper while there's piles of cleaning up to do, while he sits studying. Didn't seem right.

morningpaper for me being a feminist is as much as anything about having the ability to make choices. You have chosen a man with a busy career and a fat wallet (which does make me think why the hell don't you hire a cleaner??? I would if we could afford it, like a shot). You have chosen to have a child and presumably have chosen to stay home rather than send your child to daycare.

I finished my PhD when I was 6 months pregnant and sometimes feel very low about the fact I never really got to do anything with it before launching myself into motherhood. But again, that's been my decision, I prefered to keep dd with me because of her nature and because the thought of her unhappily in daycare would have meant a rubbish kind of 'me' time. But even though dp is the major bread-winner and also works long hours which include weekends and evenings I insist he pulls his weight on domestic chores. He can fit some things in and he also appreciates that I gave up my career to look after dd but NOT to look after him if you see what I mean.

I do know what you mean about Mrs. Ms. though that doesn't worry me so much as people who are not married automatically giving the child the father's surname without question. I just don't get that, especially as if the couple break up it's 99% certain the child will stay with the mum.

I think it's frightening, how much we assume about equality. Everyone seems to think the battle's over. Yet two women are killed by their partners every week. And no-one even notices. And when someone in power makes one tiny step towards reducing this appalling slaughter, by encouraging midwives to ask about domestic violence, it's front-page condemnation from the Daily Mail for 'interfering in family life'.

For most of us, who are lucky enough not to be in such a desperate situation, it hits home when we have children and somehow despite all the good intentions, end up being responsible for all the domestic drudgery, keeping the whole show on the road. With my friends, I've noticed that even when their dhs/dps do do something around the house, its presented as 'helping' ? so we women should be really, really grateful that the man is washing up because really, it's our job.

MIL told me the other day that it's my fault dh doesn't want any more children 'because he does so much for ds'. WTF? And this from a woman who did have a career herself!

edam, the battle's far from over in terms of equality, in many walks of life. BUT seeing yourself as a 'drudge' or not standing up for yourself in the face of 'useful' MIL comments (I get many ) doesn't help the fight.

Prefernot: Edam didn't say she saw herself as a 'drudge' or say that she didn't stand up to her MIL!

All: I know I have made choices (although not sending dd to childcare doesn't FEEL like a choice, just the right thing). We always said that whoever earnt the most would go out to work post-babies, and for AGES I was ahead of the running, but then we moved out of London and our career paths changed dramatically.

I don't regret it - but I know that dp works damn hard and I know that if I ALSO work damn hard I can 'finish' the day's cleaning/washing work so we can have a 'quiet' evening. It feels much less stressful that way for both of us.

DP definitely does 50% + at weekends. Edam: I SO know what you mean about 'helping' - I get REALLY angry when I hear friends saying "... I'm so lucky, my husband really helps out a lot." ?!?!

As for cleaners - yes we could afford, but I have real reservations about making my home into someone else's place of work. And somehow, paying ANOTHER woman to do MY 'family work' doesn't seem right either.

All this talk of feminism and I just remembered that I'd left tomorrow's soup on the hob!

Am fifties wife.

LOL morningpaper! Can you email supplies of home-cooked soup, please?
Hope you are wearing your very best pinny, btw

oh morningpaper I so know where you're coming from. having kids was the biggest eye-opener ever for me. As a kid, teenager, student, in my first job, as a newly-wed, I kind of saw myself as post-feminist. Grateful and all that but I didn't need it, the world was mine etc etc. and then kids just came along and whacked me for six. Everything about our family arrangements are practical, make sense, decided on pragmatic lines, but I'm still the one staying at home 2 days a week. I'm still the one who sorts out the childcare (a kind of "natural" progression from being on maternity leave - I'm "making the change" by "going back" therefore I sort it all out. wtf? - there's also the fact he would have gone with the first childminder he met, but that's another story!) He's the one earning x times my salary. He's the one in a child-un friendly industry that demands long hours and where you can't say "got to go, kids" at 5.30, so guess who does? Don't know what the answers are but a start would be equality in the law when it comes to parenting, and men with mammary glands

Definitely we need equality in the law. I'm currently on ML, simply because I'm the one who gets paid to do so - dh is desperately sad to be missing out on time with ds whilst he's so young, & he'd do a fabulous job given the chance.

We both have professional jobs we enjoy, but I'm LOVING my 6 months at home with ds, & it'd be only fair if dh & I could've swapped after 3 months: & I could go back to work with an easy conscience then!

& I actually quite like cooking, & tidying, & pootling about generally, so it seems a bit mean to get into a feminist strop about it when I know damn well dh'd love to swap - I've got very much the better deal. When we first moved in together, he promptly got made redundant & spent a couple of months being the housewifey type, before finding his current job, so it's my turn...

OK, it's a problem if you see keeping the homefires burning as a form of drudgery...I see it as a lovely, relaxing change from the day job.

lots of interesting approaches here
I like the way hercules and zebra express the role of femnisim in their lives now they are mothers. I agree with that.

When i first gave up work for ds1 I did have a few wry smiles for all the tub-thumping and high-horsing I did on behalf of Mary Daly et al in my student days. But I have to say I think, and this is my subjective view, that the biological division of labour in a family with young children does actually make sense to some extent and I feel proud that I am carrying on a tradition. However I also feel eternally grateful and repsectful that I have a choice.

I do wish I had more foresight in my student days that some of the rubric and partisanship going around in the eighties would not actually carry me through my life if I chose to get married and have a family. And I do think it gave me false expectations about the practical elements of life.

I used to read my best friend's big sister's copy of Spare Rib and empathise with every word. And now I clean and cook. Go figure....

Postscript - got up from my screen last night to discover dh had done 2/3 of the packing for our holiday. So I can confirm that I'm not a drudge!
But generally I do think women get left with all the responsibility for household chores when they have children. Even when men do something, it's 'helping out'. We have a cleaner for a few hours every week (both work full time) yet it always seems to be me who pays her and I do all the rest of the housework unless I harass dh. And guess whose wages the nursery fees come out of?

When feminists demanded the right to work outside the home, they forgot to demand that the working week be reduced to 20 hours, so that both adults could do it and fit in their childcare commitments, and have some leisure time. Forty years ago, society was adapted to the model of one adult in the family doing a 40 hour working week and one adult staying at home and doing the work which needed to be done (housework, bringing up children etc.), which was widely denigrated (and still is) as not being real work (because it was done by women in the private rather than the public sphere).

Now it is almost, but not quite, adapted to the model of 2 adults doing 80 hours of work between them, meaning that the extra work which used to be done has to be squeezed into what used to be leisure time. And the reason women are still doing it, is because men don?t want to. And as they usually earn more than women and the state won?t compensate women for the loss of earning power which having children entails, most women just don?t have the negotiation power to force men to do their fair share.

What somebody said about choices earlier was very important. To me, that is what feminism is - having the choices that our grandmothers didn't have. I'm a Ms too, have kept my family name and am a SAHM - a bit confusing for some people! I think as long as we recognise men and women's contribution to the household as equal, then it actually doesn't matter who does the cleaning etc. Don't know if that makes sense but I think that's the way I see it!

Hi all - just found this 'feminist' thread and read through all the messages. PLEASE READ ALL THIS BEFORE ASSUMING ANYTHING!!! As someone who has actively promoted feminism for over 20 years (some of those years-very radically) and having done a degree in Women's Studies as well as post grad courses in areas such as feminism etc, I have finally come to the conclusion that perhaps what we ought to be doing is recognising and accepting that we are different to men - we can't be the same. Men's brains definately function differently to womens. All the men I have known throughout my life (NOT IN THAT WAY, but, fathers, brothers, cousing, uncles, sons, colleagues, partners, lovers (WELL PERHAPS SOME IN THAT WAY), husband, etc, etc) have proved that men can't multi-task very well, their little brains just cannot deal with having to think about more than one thing at any one time. I'm convinced that this is why women fall into doing the most difficult roles whilst men can only cope with one thing - paid work. This is why men define themselves by what they do. For example; when someone asks what I do - where do I start? ...Women's Group Co-ordinator, Lecturer, College tutor, youth & community worker, mother, grandmother, undergrad student (again), distance learning student, carer, domestic engineer (so much better sounding than housewife - and that doesn't acount for individual roles within that role), researcher, etc, etc. When someone asks DH what he does - he simply replies 'steelworker' (His own words). I do think, that as women, regardless of what theories or knowledge we have, we collude with men in all the crap that they often believe in. When I worked full time 8.30-5, DH did more housework than I did, because he works shifts and was always in the house when I was at work. He has always done the weekly shop - for a number of reasons,

1. I hate food shopping.
2. He drives and I don't.
3. I hate food shopping.
4. He's great at finding bargains.
5. Did I say that I hate food shopping. and
6. I HATE FOOD SHOPPING!!! I have never automatically assumed that the kids were my responsibility and can't understand why some women have to 'ask' their DH's to babysit. Surely women should be able to make the assumption, just as men do, that when they go out, the other person stays in and takes care of the kids. Now I'm at home taking care of my grandson on a (very temporary) full time basis, depending on DH's shifts, I may have a meal ready when he gets home. If he's due in at 1.00pm - he cooks, if due home at 6.00pm - I cook, simply because the kids need feeding. If he's due at 9.30pm, I cook for me and the kids - he get something either before he goes to work at lunchtime, or feed's himself when he gets home in the evening. And regardless of who cooks - he clears the dishes. The only thing we stick to regularly - I do the main meal on a saturday, and he does sunday (still does all the dishes on both days). This evening, he's due home at 5.30pm - he'll come home from work, load the kids into the car and take them with him to do the weekly shop, whilst I do what the hell I like. I admit that I do tend to plan my social and study life around his shifts. However, if I don't want, or can't have the kids with me, he has to sort out childcare for days when he should have the kids and his shifts change.I guess what I'm trying to say is -Don't assume that you are responsible cause DH works outside the home. I remember years ago, my own DH was going to see the bank manager, just as he was on his way out of the door, I was putting DD into her buggy and called him to wait for her. The expression on his face was brilliant, especially when acted surprised at his assumption that he could just go out whilst I would take care of the baby. I explained that if I was going to see the bank manager, I would be expected to take her with me. Anyway, he took her (mainly cause I wasn;t going to let him out without her and he was running late) and I've never looked back. Since then, everything else has just fell into place. Neither of us assumes that the other will automatically take care of the kids. We always check if the other has something on, if we need particular days without the kids - and actually ask the other person if they mind having the kids whilst we do - whatever. It works, definately reduces stress and mean that we both have our own lives as well as our life together.

Well put Tommy. The issue is not that we have to do the less appreciated work but that the work we do in the home is less appreciated.

It's damn hard work raising kids and keeping a home.

I think the important thing is that both partners realise that and view each other as equals and I think we have feminism to thank for that.

By the way, I'm a Ms or a Mrs depending on who's asking. In my academic and any professional life - if a title is necessary - always Ms, althought in any mail I usually just put my 1st initial and surname and let people assume what they like. Currently in the process of applying for jobs and on some forms I'm Ms. whilst on others Mrs - depending on the values and philopophies behind the potential employer as well as the role I'm applying for.
Always Mrs at DS's school - think it makes them feel comfortable.
Sometimes I put Ms just to wind certain people up, even in today's climate - you can see some people minds ticking over trying to decide if your a lesbian or not.

I haven't read all responses to this, so maybe someone has the same point. I think feminism is about having the choice to do what the hell you want. I have a friend that she is making a feminist statement by going back to work 100% after she has her child. For me being feminist is demanding the right and the acceptance to continue with my career when going back to work only 60% after my child is born. I think I will be happier, less stressed and have a more fulfulling life that way (we are discussing both working 80% in the future).
I agree with the Miss/Ms/Mrs thing and always call myself Ms (although dearly regret taking my ex-husbands name when we got married). This is something that is not an issue in other countries. e.g. in DE & CH you are 'Frau' if married or not once you look as if you are not a child anymore and in France 'Madame'. But the women in Switzerland have no idea what feminism is or wht making their own choices are (in one area women only got the right to voting on local issue somewhere in the 90s!!!!). So I don't think Mrs or Ms has much impact on behaviour or attitides.
.... I have just read Tommy's reply. Same comment about choice!