Feminism and me

[morningpaper]

After spending the first three decades of my life being a raving feminist, I can't help wonder WTF? when it comes to being a mum.

Basically my skills (in order of usage) are: cleaning for DP and DD, cooking for DP and DD, washing for DP and DD, Microsoft network technician (0% of time).

After an exhausting days cleaning/cooking/ washing, once I've settled into bed to read my (imported) copy of MS. magazine, I wonder what's the point? What useful lesson has feminism really taught me?

I noticed at a recent gathering of mummy-friends that I was the only 'Ms.' and when I commented on this (may have been a tad drunk) all my (intelligent) friends said things like "Well I like people knowing I'm married!" and it made me feel VERY depressed to think I was raising a daughter for ... what kind of future? Probably the same as mine - cooking, cleaning, and washing - all while being (of course) very enlightened and feminist about the whole thing.

Does anyone else worry about this... or am I letting the post-election blues get to me?!?

This is fascinating to read. I am actually writing a lecture on the moment on feminist semiotics so the bits about Ms and Mrs are really relevant!! I was delighted last year to have actually reached Dr so I didn't have to mess about with insisting on Ms any more. Since DH is also Dr, people tend to assume that any reference to Dr X is him, but we are working on that. DS (ten) is trained to enquire 'which one?' when a telephone caller asks for 'Dr X'.
Just wanted to say before rushing off to teach that DH is very much a new man. When we were choosing which part of the county to live in, I pointed out that if we lived nearer his university I would have to travel longer, and thus leave earlier in the morning and arrive back later. This is not a problem for him. I leave at 8, he stays till our nanny arrives and hands over to her. I arrive back an hour later than him and so he also handles the hand-over at the other end of the day. Having said that, our nanny and I quickly sussed out that messages would not (could not?) be passed via him and that if anything important needed to be said, we needed to talk on the telephone during the day! He also has no problem in announcing during late-running meetings that he has to leave because of the children. Perhaps working in the liberal atmosphere of a university helps. Perhaps it also helps that he is Scandinavian and so such behaviour can be put down to his being 'different'!

Libra: DH says that if there were a married version of "Mr." that he would use it. Surely feminists have proposed such a title? What about "Mr'd"?

I was recently reading some feminist psychology literature for my degree, my mum was visiting and picked up my books and sighed ; she then said you do know that dp will never propose while you have books like this in the house!!

Not quite as funny as when I had my ex mother in law to stop just after I had my dd, her pearls of wisdom for a successful marriage were,

When dd is in bed put on some lingerie and lead your husband into the bedroom making passionate love to him, when he has fallen asleep creep out of bed and mop all the floors, as no man likes to wake up to a dirty house!!! We divorced not long after!!

What a very interesting thread.

I'm a feminist, none of this post-feminist nonsense for me thank you very much.

I'm the breadwinner, DH looks after the kids, he also takes responsibility for ensuring that the laundry gets done, that the food shopping gets done, that the rubbish gets taken out etc. I have always earned more than him, so there seemed no other logical way to organise things.

When my DS1's class recently did "I have a dream", DS1 said that he had a dream of becoming a dad! So I think that's a result for DH.

We are married and I do wear a ring (as does my DH) but have never changed my name.

Aloha (12.40 post) that's exactly what I'm trying to say. I do think a lot of things are about a state of mind. Me and dp are broke so there's no option of cleaners etc. but if there were I'd be happy to employ one. Without a cleaner our place is a bit of a tip but we'd both rather live in a bit of a tip than spend our odd bits of free time cleaning it up. I always said to dp that as I was going to be doing the majority of the childcare when dd naps or sleeps in the evening that was going to be MY time. And I stick to that and he appreciates it because he knows I've put other things in my career on hold for now. It also makes me a happier mum if after dd's afternoon sleep I've been lost in a novel and can be with her feeling fresh and happy with life. I admit that I have a slightly 'irresponsible' side when it comes to domesticity: don't own an iron, cook as quickly and simply as possible (or ideally get dp to do it!), etc. etc. One thing I swore I'd try never to do when I had dd was get caught up in too much domesticity. That's the background stuff, you can make it as much or as little of a rod for your back as you want. Domestic work is a bore, it's repetitive, it's never complete, it has no reward financially or productively because it's the same every day and often doesn't get seen. With this in mind, generally when I do have to do stuff I stick music on, dance around with the hoover with dd, stick dd on the stool and splash the dishwater around, try to make it less of a chore.

Dinosaur, does your dh feel undermined?

interesting thread, never really though about feminism before, although I have always assumed that in any relationship I have me and my partner will be equal.

Don't think that equality necessarily means sharing chores and both working though. I would much rather stay at home and do the housework but it would have to be my choice, I wouldn't like anyone to assume I would stay at home and clean just because I'm a woman.

When I was growing up my dad did most of the house work and my mum was away studying or working quite a lot, which worked fine for them but isn't right for everyone.

mum kept her maiden name but called herself mrs when she got married, think that's a good idea and I'll probably do that, mainly because i dont want to have a different last name to bean and wouldn't want him to take my husbands name (if I ever have one)

My DP studies because it's a requirement of his work, unfortunately. Actually he finds it really tedious but it should be over in another year. At least he can study at home and not at work, which would mean longer hours in the office.

I'm sure I could have an easier life if I wasn't so anally retentive about cleaning, but I really am UNCOMFORTABLE in a messy house and I like it to be tidy and everything in its place. I also don't see why DP should work his arse off all day, and then come home to study and then do MORE house work, when I CAN get it done during the day. Part of my feminist self says that it's not right for me to sit and read the paper when he's working. It doesn't make it right for him to do MORE hours work than I do, just because my work is largely very boring, tedious and domestic.

He doesn't insist of 'having his dinner on the table,' but we both think its really important to eat together as a family during the week.

I agree, I have made choices, but these are within the constraints of an economic environment which means that he earns x times my salary in a highly-stressful job. And yes I did choose to have a family, but at the same time, that's such an important part of my idea of what life is all about.

At weekends, it isn't a problem - it's just the way that the weekdays pan out that depressed me. I don't think there is 'an answer' - paying someone else to do it isn't really addressing the problem. I think that really, my feminism just failed to prepare me for the realities of 'family life' - the expression makes me think of happy summer days and love and laughter.... but actually, it's mainly been about clearing up.

Zebra: feminists don't suggest a married version of Mr. They suggested Ms because it doesn't imply married or non-married. If all women used Ms no one would know anything about their marital status. Unfortunately, Ms was not widely adopted and ended up having definite implications. Women who use it are perceived by society to be making a statement about the sort of women they are.
Can I ask how people pronounce Ms? Is it Muzz or Miz? I never knew!

But I also have a 'real' family life, but it certainly isn't dominated by cleaning. There are options. To be perfectly honest, I don't think your choices, morningpaper, are anything to do with a failure of feminism or about economics. You could work if you wanted to, you could employ a cleaner if you wanted to (which actually would address the feeling of unhappiness about cleaning very well! Just as having an electrician in deals with the problem of a dodgy electrics), and you could read the paper instead of cleaning, if you wanted to. The bottom line is that you don't want to, which is fine, of course. It's your choice. I don't care very much if things 'aren't in their place', I never feel guilt for reading and I think that just because one of you chooses to work long hours it doesn't mean the other one has to join them. Your choices are as valid for mine, my only thought is that if they make you unhappy, then why not change them? I am very grateful for feminism for offering me choices and chances which I have taken.

PML nikkim!!!!!

Love this thread, it's so interesting. I'm always a Ms (Muzz)- not married but not anyone else's business! Been with dp 13 years & 1 dd, sometimes refer to him as dh, depending on circumstances. Actually have been v anti marriage because couldn't handle all implication of being Mrs - other people's expecations of what a 'wife' is. I think the issue of domestic chores is also often run by expectations - mostly our own sub-concious idea of what a wife / mum / partner 'should' be like. I certainly consider myself a feminist, but every so often find myself caught out thinking i'm not being a 'proper' partner as I don't tidy much, not too keen on cleaning etc and as my mum never worked & really looked after the whole house & did everything for us & esp my brothers I realise I'm sub-conciously hotwired to think that's what I should do too. Feminism allows me to attempt to see those feelings for what they are. Dp was brought up doing a lot of chores helping out his dm, so any guilt is definitely self-imposed. It's so strange to know intellectually that there's no reason to feel it, that we're each doing our bit, but that doesn't stop me feeling it!

PS Actually only became aware of feminism at 19 when met other girls/women who were at uni & talked about their ambitions & I suddenly realised I had none & expected to get married & be supported by dh
but it was an amazing moment to suddenly realise I could be or do anything I wanted to. Real 'Eureka'! And I've been a real pain with my niece who's 17, ramming down her throat the fact that she, too, can acheive whatever she sets her mind to.

LIBRA - Not just the use of 'Ms' (I pronounce it 'Muz') that has implications for the type of person you are perceived as - My degee is in WOmen's Studies..can't count the amount of times people (generally men and a certain generation of women) have asked if it involves cooking and cleaning. Once explained to my mother what sort of subject it covered and she immediately went home and told her friends and family that she thought that I'd just come out to her as a lesbian - or at least bisexual.

XenaWP: I agree that the feelings of guilt are definitely self-imposed, although DP has confessed to similar feelings of guilt if we struggle with money - he feels like he should be the big man bringing home the cash to keep 'his family' well off. Which is just as mad as me feeling guilty if all the cleaning isn't done at the end of the day.

I was recently reading an American website about "how to do it all!" called Fly Lady. Basically it encourages us 'ladies' to keep our houses in order - and places lots of emphasis on having a shiny sink at the end of the day. I read this site with part of me thinking "Dear God! This is like something from the fifties!" but another part of me thinking, "Gosh, a shiny sink before bed, how marvellous." Which makes me want to beat myself about the head with my Vileda Supamop.

I do work a couple of days a week, which I really enjoy. I am very happy with my life. I just had no idea how much HOUSEWORK was involved in looking after children. I appreciate that you feel differently. But personally, I never realised that so many hours of my life were going to disappear into the tumble drier along with the nappies.

Jamast: LOL

XenaWP: Glad you are passing on the flame. I have a sister-in-law who has just graduated and keeps referring to herself as a 'dumb blonde' and spends all her time cooking and cleaning and running around after her boyfriend, just like her Mamma did. It makes me really sad that she has spent three years at university and never met any women who taught her differently.

P.S. I'm a Ms / Miz. That might be due to reading too many edition of 'Mizz' when I was 11.

Jamast. I agree. And it drives me mad when my female students react so badly to the word 'feminist'. I hear comments like 'I'm not a feminist because I shave my legs/not a lesbian/have a boyfriend'. Sometimes I want to weep! And the more intelligent ones pityingly explain that they are post-feminists because 'we have achieved all the goals of feminists'. Oh yeah? Then I have this huge rant at them and they all roll their eyes.

Morningpaper. Please try a cleaner - just for a month - go on spoil yourself - you could divide the duties so you were in charge of the sinks.....please. Honest you can come to live with the guilt

Terrific thread, so many great views here, Prufrock and Aloha come to mind (not to leave anyone out ) And congratulations Aloha on the pending baby!!

I struggle with this myself. I do earn more than my DP and carry the health insurance for the family (I live in the US--I am a Voice Telecom Network Engineer). However, I have a difficult time standing up for myself and insisting things are "fair". (part of what I undertand to be feminist) I hired a cleaner to come every other week and hired a gardener that comes once a week. I have done alot of things to "cope" as opposed to driving "equal" responsibilities. When my DD was born 10 years ago, we had a full time nanny and I returned to work after 6 weeks. (I worked 10 minutes from the house and ran home at lunch time to watch her sleep!)

We do pool our money in the one account, so I never view the outgoings as coming from "my" money or "his" money. I have a difficult time knowing how to "fit" in as my role as a women and/or feminist and find this discussion so very interesting for that reason. Geez....have to jump on my 11:00 conference call now! This job always gets in the way of my fun Mumsnet time!!!

Libra ... Post-feminism, LOL, in fact PMSL.
Yeah, okay. Why does no-one understand that it's only on the surface their lives appear to be different from their mothers and grandmothers lives? Can no-one see that our lives are in fact the same (or in some cases worse). Instead of looking after our own homes & families and taking in neighbours washing etc to earn money - we now look after our homes and families - and work outside the home and/or study. Now we have the added 'bonus' of having to look great all the time (thin, white, blonde, etc). So What the hell has changed for the better?
.

As has been said already jamast isn't it now much more about choice for alot us - granted not all. I choose not to just change superficially and hopefully my dd won't ever think that men don't do stuff around the house.
At the moment I'm also choosing not to move to a more expensive house as it would compromise what is important to me ie I wouldnt be able to afford the childcare I need to work and the cleaner I need for decent time to myself.
As for the added pressure of looking thin, white and blonde I choose not to give in to that sort of nonsense and instead to make my curvy, rosy, mostly brunette self feel as good as possible.

I am constantly surprised by how many people take their husband's name, though. It never occurred to me to take his name, and I never use it, even in connection with the children/school thing.

But then like zebra I've bypassed the Ms/Mrs thing by being Dr. I don't use the title for non-work things generally, but if people ask 'Is that Miss or Mrs?' I can't resist saying, 'It's Dr., actually.' To which the response is, invariably, 'Oh, sorry'. Which always strikes me as slightly weird.

Having said that, I've lost count of the number of times people assume that Dr. frogs is my husband, and I must be Mrs frogs. I've developed a nice line in frosty put-downs for these occasions.

I think Ive been a feminist since the day mammy said that my brother didnt have to help with the washing up cos he was a boy. Boy did she get a rant about that and many more for years to come.
OTOH dp is a SATD and does a large proportion of the housework (hes very houseproud). He also feels guilty as he feels (rather than thinks IYSWIM)that he should be contributing towards the household income as he is a man esp as I dont earn a huge salary and we do struggle with money. To me feminism is about both sexes having choice and sharing in both the good and bad bits of life (esp the washing up. I hate washing up)

Great thread. I think this article is pretty good on the possible ethical dilemmas of having a cleaner.