Feminism and me

[morningpaper]

After spending the first three decades of my life being a raving feminist, I can't help wonder WTF? when it comes to being a mum.

Basically my skills (in order of usage) are: cleaning for DP and DD, cooking for DP and DD, washing for DP and DD, Microsoft network technician (0% of time).

After an exhausting days cleaning/cooking/ washing, once I've settled into bed to read my (imported) copy of MS. magazine, I wonder what's the point? What useful lesson has feminism really taught me?

I noticed at a recent gathering of mummy-friends that I was the only 'Ms.' and when I commented on this (may have been a tad drunk) all my (intelligent) friends said things like "Well I like people knowing I'm married!" and it made me feel VERY depressed to think I was raising a daughter for ... what kind of future? Probably the same as mine - cooking, cleaning, and washing - all while being (of course) very enlightened and feminist about the whole thing.

Does anyone else worry about this... or am I letting the post-election blues get to me?!?

Jamast, are you joking? You don't think things have improved? My God, my mother wouldn't agree with you one bit. She was born in 1940, and brought up in a very working class home. She was taught that once you were married 'you made you bed and should lie in it" - no matter how miserable you were. That your career was unimportant. Loads of dreadful stuff. It ruined her life, to be honest. Stayed much, much longer than she should have in a miserable marriage, did crap jobs for even more crap money (no equal pay act, no respect for women in work, no sense that the world is your oyster that I see in young women today). She is now single, works at stuff she has a passion for, is assertive, rebellious, NEVER cooks (she hates it. Always hated it. Felt obliged to make revolting sunday roasts for years and years!) She loathes domesticity, lives in a bohemiam sort of flat full of books.
It's such a short time ago that women couldn't even take out a loan or a get a mortgage on their own. Ads from the seventies are all jokes about women's stupidity. Working women were a joke. The idea that men should be equal partners in the home didn't really seem to exist. I think things are far, far better now, and will be even better for our daughters.

BTW I am married, wear a wedding ring and though I work under my birth name, I use my married name for my private life. I like us all having the same name - adds to my sense of my family as my community. But this doesn't change the way I feel about equality.

Interesting article Scummy, but I think wrong. My cleaner gets a good rate of pay, loves coming here (says it is a highlight of her week) absolutely worships ds, who loves and respects her and knows that we have to tidy up to help X, who is coming to help us with our house. She says that wherever we move to, she'll come to us! We coudn't get rid of her if we wanted to. She often stays longer than her hours with zero pressure from me (sometimes I wish she'd go, but she has a nice time). When I start making my own furniture, that's when I'll start feeling guilty for employing her. I think 'cleaner-guilt' is more anti-feminist than feminist, as it implies that cleaning is our work and duty. I don't think people feel builder-guilt or furniture-buying guilt, do they?

I could probably do my own tax return too, but would hate it. Should I feel accountant-guilt?

Not trying to put anyone on a guilt trip aloha, honest, but I think the article was maybe suggesting that few people CHOOSE cleaning as a career in the way they may more often choose building or furniture making and thus power relationships usually come into play at some level. Sounds like they are managed well in your house though.

No, No. I agree that there are individuals who have seemingly 'made-it' as far as feminism and apparent equality is concerned (me being one of them). What I am trying to say is that, in general women are still burdened with having to do it all. Many women are still in the same trap as they were 20, 30, 40 years ago - just the bait that's changed. It's a wider society that has implications for women. Whatever happens for individuals is no good in the real world and we acknowledge that we are still having to fight for true equality. We teach our daughters that they can have it all, that they can 'choose' what direction they want to take (whether that be SAHM or career, or whatever). We prime them for a life that they believe is equal. We tell them that they are strong, that they have a choice. But, what real choice do they have. We can have fabulous full, or part time careers and have kids - but for the majority of women, childcare and the home are still seen as their responsibility. I know one woman who has a fabulous career, earns lots more than her DH, works more hours than he does, would, and does, definately proclaim herself to be feminist - yet goes home and starts cooking and cleaning. Her reasoning being that everyone else is happy with the mess - it's her that like it clean and tidy, so she should do it. She thinks her kids shouldn't have to cook or clean cause they are kids (aged 19, 16, 15). Another woman works full time, cooks, shops, cleans and her so-called DH, sits on his backside doing nothing. Her reasoning - he's job hunting and can't find the time to do menial work, it would undermine his confidence(for almost 4 years?). A third woman, thinks her DH is wonderful, although he doesn't physically assault her - he talks to her as though she is something that he's trod in. She has all his meals on the table at regular times, etc, etc. She recently attended training for work in the domestic abuse service - and commented that the description of a verbally abusive partner totally fitted her hubby... so there had been a mistake made somewhere because he was such a good husband (her words). All three of these women would class themselves as equal to their partners and call themselves feminists. These are not anomalies - these are three examples of women whom I work with on a regular basis, who genuinely believe that their lives are vastly different and so much better than their mothers.
As for the comment I made about thin, white and blonde - I don't fit those either. I'm fat (VERY), short, brunette. Again, I was talking about the way women are still portrayed. Look at american TV - all the women are perfect - in reality, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone below about 14 stones on the streets.
I go for job interviews as a very highly qualified and experienced woman and can see the look on people faces when I walk in the door.
Total strangers make assumptions based on physical appearances. My last job was as manager of a local community project. In the park with my son, a stranger was slagging off a centre that we had built as part of the project, when I said that I worked there, her response was "oh, but as a cleaner, you're not really in a position to argue against what project management decides to do with the money".

aloaha i loved your post on not feeling guilty about employing a cleaner. I am a SAHM who has a cleaner for 5 hours a week (and feel mildly guilty. Having said that some of my friends work full time yet wont have a cleaner, even though they can afford it- and they fight constantly with thier partners about housework. DH and I never fight over house stuff.

Caligula - Feminists have and still do demand a reduction in the working week. eg swedish feminists are campaigning for a 6 hour day as standard.

Jamast - the real choice that all your women have is to stay or to leave. That was a choice that my mothers and my grandmothers generations did not have!

I think women today have a fanstastic range of choices compared to a generation ago. We may choose to stay at home, be husband pleasers, or whatever, but at least it is a choice.

One small example - my DM on her first day back at work after her honeymoon, was called to the cashiers office regarding her pay. She was presented with a joint bank book in her and my fathers name and told that in future all her earnings would be paid directly into that account (rather than paid in cash as she had been previously) as 'your money will only be pin money now - so you may as well save it up'!!! As Ahloa says married women were not allowed credit (not even to run the clubby book) without their husbands acting as guarantor.

TBH I think the world is not perfect e.g. the way that responsibility for the home and children is often supposed to be the woman's, but surely no-one would seriously argue that we are no better off now than our mothers and grandmothers were???

Once again, it comes back to us all being able to quote individuals who are better off. The choice to walk away, is not a choice for everyone. It is not as easy as people think - otherwise we wouldn't have women who stayed in dysfunctional or violent relationships. My point is, that many of these women actively believe that they are equal and that they are fulfilling their own so-called choices. And other women, also cullude with the idea of everyone having a 'choice'. No-one has true choice, what we do have is a selection to choose from - thus we are limited and by the true definition, don't actually have much of a choice.

Soapbox - there are still places that do not allow women credit without their husbands details, etc. Just try getting a loan as a married woman without being asked for partners details. As someone who has worked both as a 'credit checker' and on the other side of the fence as a debt advice worker - things aint changed that much. Those offering credit want the names of both partners on legal documents because it covers their backs should the person seeking the credit default. Creditors have finally come to understand that - a husband or wife are not legally responsible for each others debt - so now creditors insist on both partners details and get very shirty, often refusing the loan/credit if the applicant refuses. How many SAHM's understand that as a joint mortgage holder - should the relationship break down and the house be repossessed and sold - both partners are equally responsible for the entire debt remaining - not just the one who works. One woman I work with is still repaying the mortgage on her first house - from her 1st marriage. The company can't trace her ex-hubby, as he's left the country, she's on benefits and guess who's having to stump up payments?

hercules i would like to point out that many omen whilst aware of feminism have no choice whether to have a career or a family - money neds negate the choice element.

i never thought of the implications of mrs before and in thinking about this actually think that i doesnt get me more of anything, make me feel more of anything or less of anything - its a title that doctors use when calling me in for an examination - its not used in everyday life - 15 years married if people say "mrs custardo" i still look round for my MIL.

we both work full time ( no choice there) and we both do half of everything ish - which usually mean we do a whole lot of fuck all actually as life is too short IMO.

ps femenists dint demand the right to work outside the home - dont let amican 50's idealogy prevail ladies, women have always worked, babies were given dugs to kep them quiet int he basement of cotton mills so women could go back to work to earn the meagre wages to buy just enough food to survive.

tommy i dont have the choices my grandmother didnt have - my grandmother worked - i work. the working class of the industrial revolution faught and died togehter for better wages and conditions.

but prufrock....working class women never had a wife at home to look after the kids

am steaming a bit - will calm down a little and come back

i dispair of most of you very educated women

did the majority of women sit at home at some point doing needle work and writing books they could only publish under a male pseudonym?

at what point were families paid enough - were average men paid enough so that their wives and kids could stay at home whilst their women cooked dinner and children were seen and not heard?

its bollox.

Actually custardo I agree with all your post.

The only reason I can work parttime is because DH works nights so he can look after dd during the days I work. If he worked days then I dont know what we'd do as we couldnt afford 2 childcare nor can we survive on one wage.

I will have to go full time oneday though as it's not fair on dh to live like this for ever.

My mum always worked full time as well. SHe ran a shop whilst looking after me and my brother when we were toddlers and carried on doing all sorts full time when we were growing up. SHe still works now at 67.

I should know better especially since i've im the middle of teaching year 9 the industrial revolution.

So again, yes you are quite right. A good post too.

Just reread my first post.
You're right. It was a load of bollocks!

I think of "Muzz" as a dreadful British way to pronounce what should be "Mizz".
I think feminism does mean different things depending on culture, Custy.
For one thing, for your working class woman example, it means her husband can't beat her at will, any more. And he can be done for raping her nowadays, too.

lmao your so funny xxx

Imao eh?

bump for custardo

sorry hercules - laugh my ass off, its means i find that very very funny in internet speak

Thanks

Yeah great rant Custardo, I agree with practically all of it, but I think I assumed sixties/ seventies pre feminism, not before.

There was a point in the sixties and seventies when lots of working class men (miners, steelworkers etc.) were paid enough to keep wives at home. Still probably not a majority though.

All my aunts and mother were working class (nurses and waitresses) but still had to give up work when they got married (late fifties early sixties). Went back in the seventies, when their kids went to school. It was always their ambition to not have to work outside the home.

Just wanted to say how much I agree with Aloha's comments here regarding cleaners. Not only do I not feel guilty for employing one but reading threads like this I'm bloody glad I do. My dh and I never argue about housework while she's around. But even when she's not (she only does three hours a week) he never expects to be looked after like a child. We do our equal share of all the household chores.

We assume equal responsibility for looking after our dd and I would be horrified if it was any other way. Feminism taught me to expect equality in my relationships and I've not been disappointed. I refuse to believe we are that much of a rarity - most of my friends have equal relationships too. Is that really so unusual?

Interesting bit about the cleaners. I kind of agree with both of you. If you have a cleaner, you're an employer and should treat her (him) with the same respect you'd like as someone's employee. And, I don't think some people do that, although everyone I know who has someone clean loves them and treats them with respect, dignity and a decent wage to boot.

But, as pointed out in the article, I will be looking for an independent cleaner as I think they get a higher paycheck and more attention from the person who is actually employing them (the person whose house it is).

We just moved here, so I don't have one yet. My last two actually cried when we left.. now I'm worried they were tears of joy!

(And it's "Miz", although I go by Mrs MyLastName -- I didn't change my name when we got married, as I would have lost my science creds and I didn't want to, but I like Mrs for some reason)

Skimmed through as listening out for ds...I was a Ms for 33 years, including the years of my first marriage, & now I'm a Mrs because it makes life simpler for ds in future if we all have the same name - the three of us are a family, we have a family name. It happens to be dh's name because his is more unusual/interesting than my 'maiden' (ugh!) name. Could just as easily have gone the other way if I hadn't been up for a change.

Or we could've hyphenated it, I suppose, as SIL & husband did. But then what if ds marries a girl whose parents did that, & THEIR kids end up with 4 names?! Just seemed simplest to agree which was the name we'd prefer ds to have, & for me to adopt it too.

I think the main reason it really wasn't a huge issue (& my 20-something self would've bristled like mad at the thought of taking some bloke's name) was that I definitely expect equality in my relationship - he couldn't 'oppress' me if he tried, I'm older, I earn slightly more & I'm a good deal bossier!

My grandmothers all worked outside the home, as did, I'm sure, my great grandparents. My mother and dh's mother also worked - dh's mother as a hospital cleaner, amoung other things. I have often said that the full-time mother is something of freakish modern, Western phenomemon (not saying SAHMs are freaks!!) - in the past poor women worked, rich women farmed out their children to other women to be looked after. This does not negate feminism of course. I think if we think that feminism is or was pointless, I think we forget how much things have changed. Stuff we totally take for granted. And of course, I certainly don't think the battle is won.