Feminism and me

[morningpaper]

After spending the first three decades of my life being a raving feminist, I can't help wonder WTF? when it comes to being a mum.

Basically my skills (in order of usage) are: cleaning for DP and DD, cooking for DP and DD, washing for DP and DD, Microsoft network technician (0% of time).

After an exhausting days cleaning/cooking/ washing, once I've settled into bed to read my (imported) copy of MS. magazine, I wonder what's the point? What useful lesson has feminism really taught me?

I noticed at a recent gathering of mummy-friends that I was the only 'Ms.' and when I commented on this (may have been a tad drunk) all my (intelligent) friends said things like "Well I like people knowing I'm married!" and it made me feel VERY depressed to think I was raising a daughter for ... what kind of future? Probably the same as mine - cooking, cleaning, and washing - all while being (of course) very enlightened and feminist about the whole thing.

Does anyone else worry about this... or am I letting the post-election blues get to me?!?

I have given dd her father's surname, with my surname as a middle name. I have explained to her that she has got a bit of each of our names. We didn't want double-barrelled as it sounded crap.

To be honest, when we made this decision, I thought that, if we did split up, it would be nicer for DP to have his children with HIS surname, as they would likely be living with me. I thought it would make him feel more included in their lives if we ever did live separately, whereas if I shared my name with them, it would feel a bit more like they were 'all mine'. Physically, they were always liklely to live with me, but at least dp will always have a 'claim' over them by sharing their family name. Does that makes any sense?

Also of course it makes it simpler for the files at the CSA....

Yes Morningpaper that absolutely makes sense. My own children have their respective dad's names for exactly that reason (well not the csa reason - but now you come to mention it lol)
I don't mind at all my children having different surnames to me (and to eachother) and neither do they. I remember my mum remarrying when I was 7 and again when I was 15 after being widowed twice. I wasn't lucky enough to know my own dad as he died before I have any memories, but I'm very glad that my mum left me with his name. He is a part of who I am and he loved me very much. I was proud to have his name just as my children are to have the names of their dads irrespective of the relationship I had with them (after all it was good enough at one time to have conceived them, and I would rather they knew that I loved and respected their dads at the time even if everything did go wrong in the end).

Goosey: I agree. I'm divorced (but no children from first marriage) but still see that as a positive period of my life, even if things didn't work out. I am still very close to my ex-husband and so see 'splitting up' as something that can be positive, as well as (obviously) negative - and also something that can happen, even with the best intentions. But DP will always be their dad, whatever happens between us.

I can see your point mp but I think the paternal bond would be there if you broke up with your partner without having a name to hold onto? And goosey your story is very positive but I have a friend with a little girl who has her father's surname while my friend then remarried and has subsequently changed her name to her husbands and they have had 2 boys. This means that everyone living with the little girl has the same surname and she feels very left out and not part of the family. Unfortunately her father's creating a real fuss about her changing her name as he's jealous of my friend's new family and it's all a bit of a mess. In an odd way I think the whole thing's much easier if couples are married and all have the same name! Trouble is, my name's really cool and dp's is a real drag. Fortunately the two of ours together doesn't sound too stupid.

I didn't want to get married and certainly didn't want to change my name to dp's.....I'm a Ms unless I feeling particularly arsy when I say 'It's Dr. actually...' I agree with hmb I have been Ms X for too many years now to change it - it is who and what I am....
ds has both our names (no hypen...) if you don't know it's two separate names you'd think it was one...

Yes, I can be a Dr. too blackduck but then I always worry someone's going to get me to check their pulse ...

ha ha prefernot - it took me ages to explain to my nephew that although I was a Dr. I couldn't tell what was wrong with people!

Er, no, my cleaner is not my employee - she is freelance/self-employed, just like me. And nobody pays my tax or NI or pension or holidays either! She actually chooses to earn a low enough amount not to affect her other benefits, so there is no black economy either. Cleaning is her choice. She could work, for example, in a supermarket or a shop (which she has done before) but she doesn't want to. She likes coming to my house to see me and ds and helping us sort our lives out. You may not understand why this is, but I assure you it is the truth. I'd rather be a cleaner than a chiropodist myself, but we are all different.

Aloha - thanks for helping me with my cleaner guilt. Your comments have helped me see that this guilt is pointless and unnecesary. I am not a bad person. You are very wise.

this is what I was kind of trying to say about my brother's partner. After years of having worked in IT he very happily switched to cleaning. He's a cleaning fanatic as it happens. Whenever he and my brother visit he always gives my bathroom a once-over without me asking (or actually wanting it to be honest). It's a career like anything else. Each to his own.

One of my friend's dads gave up being a university lecturer to be a milkman. Enjoyed it much more. Sometimes, people do low paid and/ or low level jobs because they don't want their brain invaded by more demanding jobs, they want to keep their brain free for more interesting things than work.

with that example caligula there is still the presumption of choice.

am not sure how this feminism thread turned into how to apese you guilt or justify being an employer of a cleaner. i think where the issue od respect rears its head it should be in context with the person rather than the job.

my nan was a retail manager for a large outfit and she always said that without a cleaner the store could not open. therefore they are as valuable as any other employee.

i studied feminist literature rather than feminism itself. could someone explain to me feminist ideals and how feminism has help to change our modern society - and perhaps as importanly how feminism continues to help women today. *(apart from the vote which was helped by the suffragettes dying and protesting publically for change - and then women got the vote and the right to own property in 1918)

The Equal Pay act.

Maternity leave.

The legal right to take your employer to court for sex discrimination.

Access to the means to control our fertility while continuing to be (hetero)sexually active.

I would also, myself, add in there the increasing openness about lesbianism.

interesting though, MI, that the Victorian sweep it under the carpet attitude meant that lesbians haven't had any of the ooh that's illegal hassles that same sex male relationships have had.

i realise the acts which have been passed - could you directly relate them to feminism - and how specifically is is feminism rather than anything else which encourages - today - equal rights for women.

I think feminism is the same as the civil rights movement. Hugely influential. It made people THINK and it changed all our lives. You only have to watch an old movie, read a book or flick through a 70s newspaper or magazine to see how attitudes have changed. feminists agitated for change - men didn't give those concessions out of the kindness of their hearts.

For all that MI lists I still feel that I have to work twice as hard as the average man in my career to be accepted. I am pretty convinced I recently didn't get promotion because I had recently had ds. I think that discrimination is still there it is just more hidden.
For example, I currently share an office with a male colleague (we work in completely different areas) yet when anyone phones for him it is pretty obvious they think I'm his secretary and are mildly surprised when I say I have no idea about his movements....

Only just found this great thread. Great thoughts, great discussions.

Have a cleaner - she is much more skilled at it than I am and very valued as a result. She is self-employed, we pay well above the minimum wage and I don't know what she does wrt tax, NI - that's her business. (btw wrt pensions, I am employed and my employer doesn't pay anything into a pension for me, this stuff isn't actually standard, even if you're not self-employed)

DH and I both work outside the home (well actually, he works from home mostly) 4 days a week and do one day childcare each during the week. I know it's a luxury as we can (just about) afford it. This works well for us. He does most of the getting DD to and from nursery as I leave early and get home late and he is at home anyway. He doesn't seem to believe in tidying but does lots of cooking. I rant about this a fair bit but it's much better since the cleaner comes once a week so at least my ranting is curtailed on a weekly basis.

Am a Ms. and always will be. Do enjoy the slightly confused silences when I tell salespeople etc. Have also kept my own name (not actually completely sure why I got married but it was a great party!) DD has both our names, hypenated. Sometimes wish we'd done like Blackduck and just put them together without the hypen (they put it like that on her passport by mistake and I liked it). If DD wants to get together and raise kids with another double barreller in the future they can sort out the naming issue themselves (hope they keep mine in there somehow though ). I was just damn sure I wasn't going to carry her for 9 mths and then not give her my name (no offence to anyone who didn't feel like that). In fact for a while it was just going to be my name - DH is a bit of feminist too - until DH thought his folks might be sad so we added his for good measure! It is all a bit confusing for others and will no doubt get moreso with school etc but hey, I reckon if it makes people think a bit about their assumptions that's fine (although they probably just thing we are twats, I don't care ). I do empathise with those who want a shared family name, I've suggested to DH that he change his to mine or we both change to the joint name but he's not interested (some feminist!!!) so that's that.

Anyway - love the thread and love reading everyone elses thoughts. Glad there are still some of us thinking about this stuff, sometimes I despair.....

hi MI.
Interested in the access to fertility control issue. Fertility control didn't come about as a result of Feminism - it was literally developed as a way of controlling the "working classes and stop them from breeding". Marie Stopes was a eugenicist - out to stop the buggers from breeding, not to help women control their fertility.
As for being able to remain (hetero)sexually active, try telling young people, who regularly experience negative reactions from those who are supposed to be there to help them at GUM clinics etc, that they are free to be sexually active and that there are no negative assumptions made about them or their lifestyles and that they will be treated with respect from sexual health practitioners - hence the major growth over the past few years of young peoples sexual health clinics in youth centres, schools and colleges.

dd has my surname as her middle name so she will always have it This was a compromise as I took dh's name as we felt it was important to have a family name and dh's is unusual

As for the Equal Pay Act - if this is so god, then why do a high proportion of women still earn less than men for comparable jobs?

Still got keyboard dyslexia - that should read good - not god!!

it is merely tokenistic like alot of other anti-discrimiantory legislation as it all based on teh values of predominatly white middle class men

As for the surname issue, I took my DH's surname when we married, simply because I didn't know any better. Love him to bits but 22 years on, regret my own name being lost and do keep toying with the idea of incorporating my own name with his, sounds great double barrelled, but feels totally pretentious. Then there's the hassle of letting everyone know. What to do, eh?

yes I keep toying with teh idea of having my own surname incorporated into my name somehow not to sure how to do it - i felt a bit sad when I graduated it was as Mrs xxx and no mention of my former name