Rules for your Older Teen

[DadJoke]

My DS (16) suggests I am ruining his life with the household rules I've set, and that his friends have much less stringent rules. I'm after a reality check.

For background, he misses some lessons, doesn't do all his homework and gets a mix of results, none of which reflect his ability. He is obssessed with media. He's currently banned from his PS4 until April because of previous bad behaviour. If his grades improve by then, he'll get it back.

Household Chores:
Do the dishwasher each morning.
Sort the socks every now and then.

His chores:
Shower, clean clothes and deoderant every day.
Clean his room once a week.
Bring plates and dishes of his to the kitchen.
Hang up his washing.
If he does cook for himself (a few lunches a week) he clears up.

He needs to get up in time for his lessons and attend them, supervised.
Do all his homework on time.
No phone during school hours (during lockdown)
Spend 5 to 6 hours a day doing the lessons, homework and revision.
Three hours in the morning Sat and Sun homework and revision, then he does what he wants. No laptop after 11, in bed by 1, no phone.
Once all that's done he can do what he wants until 10:30, after which, no more laptop, but he keeps his phone.
Bed at 12:00.

He went on strike from school for three days because I insisted on him being supervised - when I installed a screen watcher (with his reluctant permission) I found he was spending most of the time watching Twitch. Eventually, with the help of the school, he returned, though I was on the verge of caving and letting him just make his own mistakes (which would be doing barely any work and playing computer games all the time).

Well if it's an incentive coupled with a reduction in some pressures from you or an alternative of school attendance.... But at this point/ age, he has to come round to the idea for it to work.

Job prospects for 16-17 year old part time look awful. He doesn't want to get a part-time job "he has better things to do and nothing to spend money on" and I do worry about the future for young people in the current climate. I will keep working on it - it's not something I can force

Well if he doesn’t want to do the school work then what does he suggest he do. Spend the rest of his life playing video games and being a bystander watching on his phone what others are doing as the years tick by.
He sounds very entitled and sounds like he looks down his nose at people who work in lower level jobs.
It isn’t even about money but about having some self respect and growing up.

Your DS may not actually know how to study, get organised or revise effectively. It's not taught well in schools or with any consideration that it might be different for different students. Took me best part of 15 years to work it out.... Have you actually asked him that? Does he even want to do A levels or was that your choice?

Just because a child does not know how to study, does not mean he does not want to do his A levels or go to University. Sometimes, they need to be made to put their nose to the grindstone and shown how to organise themselves, do notes and exam practice papers. Once they see themselves improving, it can be a virtuous circle. But they need to snap out of the Year 7-9 lull and gear up for Year 10-11 GCSE preparation.

DadJoke for what it is worth, I don't think you are too strict. I would do the same. Dd went from a 4-5 student to a 7-8 GCSEs. I am so proud of her. She managed to get into a good sixth form and is much happier now she has left her old school - independent sector. She would have been stuck in her old school if she was a 4-5 student.

Giving prescriptive guidance (aka intervention) showed her the correlation between working smart and getting good grades. That is a life lesson as much as making mistakes as a young teen and taking years to dig yourself out of the hole.

She has choices she would not had otherwise.

I'd be interested in more details about the screen watcher... my son is not doing all he should be atm, though he's a lot younger than 16!

@byethemillpond

He worked in a charity shop for a while and asked the local barbers if he could help out, so he’s not precious about what he does. It is frustrating that he doesn’t know what to do with himself, for sure. I wish he did. He is quite a shy lad who suffers from social embarrassment and covers it up with a know-it-all attitude. He’s certainly privileged, but not a snob.

@ahola

I'd be interested in more details about the screen watcher... my son is not doing all he should be atm, though he's a lot younger than 16!

It’s called VNC Server and VNC Viewer. It’s free for home use and you look at what’s going on. There is a free app viewer app.

You install the server on the pc you want to watch, the viewer on another PC or phone.

I think it’s wrong to use it without asking, but other than that it’s easy to set up and unobtrusive.

I suspect a younger child would have less of a problem with it. I just glanced in occasionally.

@blueshoes thank you. I really do want him to do the best he can, even if it’s a bit painful, and I am hoping for the virtuous circle you mention. He definitely wants to do well in principle.

@Karen138

the reason your son is so angry is because he is living under a tyrannical dictatorship. you're a twat

Judging by your very recent posts I’d guess you are either drunk posting, or there is someone other than my DS with anger-management issues. Anyway - have a or as your prefer.

@Chewbecca

Much stricter than I am tbh.

I have 3 requirements / goals from 17yo DS, do all your school work, be happy and be nice to the rest of the household.

Everything else falls into place around these.

Absolutely this!

Thanks!

It is frustrating that he doesn’t know what to do with himself, for sure. I wish he did. He is quite a shy lad who suffers from social embarrassment and covers it up with a know-it-all attitude. He’s certainly privileged, but not a snob.

I feel for you. Dd is terribly shy as well. It does not do any good for her self-esteem to feel that she is not as clever as her friends when actually some children just need more pushing, organisation and effort than others. It is a skill like any other so I find it strange that it is seen as pushy and dictatorial to make your dc work harder and focus more, with withdrawal of privileges if necessary. As parents, we know our kids can do better with more effort. I am not here to be their friend. Even if it strains the relationship, I will do it in their interests until they are out of the house, in which case they are on their own but in the meantime, I have done the best I can for them.

Ok, I will be the bad cop and dh the good cop. It would be so much easier for me to be laissez faire and 'cool mum' - I am pretty busy at work and have no time to homeschool - but I just cannot watch them sink whilst in my house. Even if they sink later any way, it is not on my watch. The training is complete.

@bluehoes

Thank you for giving me some hope. My goal has always been to build the best 25-year-old I can, and qualifications simply mean more choices when he's older.

qualifications simply mean more choices when he's older

I'm probably teaching granny to suck eggs here - but have you actually sat down and had this conversation with him?

I only ask because my ds1 (who is now a delightful 25 year old with a good degree) was , to put it mildly, a bloody nightmare at your ds's age. (which he now acknowledges). Shouting/swearing on the xbox til silly o'clock at night, always late to school, never doing homework- I absolutely despaired of him.

XH would stomp in and wildly ban him from the xbox for a month/two months/forever- it doesn't work.

So I stopped. I treated him like I would any other adult. The rules were few- tidy up after yourself. Don't be rude to the other occupants of the household. If he didn't want to do schoolwork, that was fine- but bear in mind he would still be required to move out of home after his A-levels, even if he'd failed OR would be required to pay the going rate for rent to live at home. The xbox would be reinstated- but he had (as I put it)to be aware that he sounded like a total idiot, shouting at a screen, and that everyone around us could hear him being so.

I told him that his future was his to worry about. I told him that I didn't have to worry about exams, because I'd already done mine. I told him it was his choice whether to do his work and secure a better chance at a good life, or waste his time now and have a poorer life in the future.

His choice. Always, his choice. And nobody to blame but himself, in the future.

It was a risk, I admit. But I was exhausted from years of trying to get him to do 'the right thing'. I think, in retrospect, it was the shock of him thinking that I'd given up on him, that clicked the switch.

I must admit I also thought banning PS4 till April was harsh as others have said . Teenagers socialise on their games . Perhaps just at weekends and certain times in evenings ?

@Shodan

Thank you!

I'm probably teaching granny to suck eggs here - but have you actually sat down and had this conversation with him?

Yes - a few times. He always agrees it's his responsibility to get a good education and says he wants my help. However, while he knows this rationally, in the moment, media is always an easier option. I really sympathise. Personally, I'm only motivated by the effect my inaction has on other people, or by fear, so I totally get it. I spent a year at university turtling before it finally filtered through the system and I got into trouble. DS doesn't fear or feel guilt about his teachers, or detentions, or me.

When he had PS4, it was two nights a week and then at weekends after homework and chores. Because of complaints from the neighbours, one of whom works early mornings, he had to stop at 10:30. The very loud swearing and shouting throughout the house I could tolerate but having some poor guy have to bash on the wall or come round was too much. Even then he thought he wasn't getting enough PS4 time.

Removing the PS4 has improved his behaviour marginally by removing trigger points, and hasn't really impinged on his ability to play computer games. He still resents it, but there you go.

So I stopped. I treated him like I would any other adult. The rules were few- tidy up after yourself. Don't be rude to the other occupants of the household. If he didn't want to do schoolwork, that was fine- but bear in mind he would still be required to move out of home after his A-levels, even if he'd failed OR would be required to pay the going rate for rent to live at home. The xbox would be reinstated- but he had (as I put it)to be aware that he sounded like a total idiot, shouting at a screen, and that everyone around us could hear him being so.

He doesn't care about the "sounding like a total idiot" bit, but otherwise this sounds like my fallback position. My ex (who doesn't have the capacity to care for him) was really upset when I told him he had to make his own plans when he's 18 - no mooching around not finding a job.

I told him that his future was his to worry about. I told him that I didn't have to worry about exams, because I'd already done mine. I told him it was his choice whether to do his work and secure a better chance at a good life, or waste his time now and have a poorer life in the future.

This is genuinely my fallback position if active intervention doesn't work and I can't cope with it anymore. I'm concerned it's a high-risk strategy based on his behaviour last term. There is a chance he might turn a corner and become motivated. But I am concerned he will turtle, ignore the looming future, play as much media as he possibly can and leave me with a very difficult choice when he's 18. I'm not sure I have it in me to kick him out.

I think the schoolwork is too prescriptive but anything else is fine.

I have a 17 year old and I expect her to do her set chores daily and they’re linked to her pocket money.
On a daily basis she:
Feeds the cats
Walks the dog
Tidies up after dinner
Hoovers a room

I’ll support her in her school work but if she doesn’t study she’s old enough to understand it’s her own doing.

@Soozikinzii

I must admit I also thought banning PS4 till April was harsh as others have said . Teenagers socialise on their games . Perhaps just at weekends and certain times in evenings ?

April is when his his next report is due. If he does OK overall, he'll get it back.

I said to him if he could provide me with evidence that he's been doing all his homework and getting better (not good) grades in the meantime, I'd reconsider. That has yet to happen. While he says PS4 is all-important to him, it's not all-important enough to do that.

He needs to understand that it's his reponsibilty, not mine or the teachers to find out what his homework is and do it on time. When he proves he can do that, he'll get it back. I want to get him into the habit of not playing games most of the day, and my supervision simply means he's in front of his Teams interface and not watching media for a few hours a day. He is then sufficiently bored that school work becomes an OK option. He still plays game for eight or more hours a day.

To be honest, if he was doing even OK at school of his own accord, he could do what he wanted subject to a few chores and reasonably behaviour. He knows this.

[quote DadJoke]@bluehoes

Thank you for giving me some hope. My goal has always been to build the best 25-year-old I can, and qualifications simply mean more choices when he's older.[/quote]

Don't lose sight of the 16 year old in front of you in your quest to 'build the best 25 year old'

Really interesting reading. My eldest is only 14 so we are not at your stage yet but I think some of the criticism you've had earlier in the thread was before people understood what the full situation was. Your original question was kind of "what's normal at this age?" and the answer to that is very different to what you should do now that he is really struggling to engage and needs help. He does actually need more direct supervision and handholding than some of his friends.

Two main thoughts. Firstly your interventions come across rather "adult to child". I would frame it more as scaffolding - what do you want to achieve, how do you want to structure your time to achieve this. Get him to write the timetable and you encourage adherence to HIS timetable. It's absolutely fine to expect him to empty the dishwasher, cook dinner, do other chores, stop gaming by 10pm but it's his choice how he organises homework and chores (within reason) and some flex is ok. If I can't bring myself to clean the bathroom one day, I don't. Secondly, are you setting (or rather is he setting) the right objectives? I have never set my children goals of spending an hour or three on homework. Their goal is to complete the tasks, and if sometimes they do it in less time than the teacher has said, all the better. If it takes much longer I will write a note and say they've done their best in the time, and we work toward getting more done. I'm in their corner. I appreciate this is probably not going to fly in Y12 but all the same I would encourage him to work smarter, not for longer, and focus on finishing tasks and getting them sent in rather than spending X hours sat at his computer procrastinating .

And one final thought, when my children are struggling with something it can be really helpful to frame it as "what skills are they lacking that makes this so hard?" rather than just calling them lazy, disorganised etc. Then you don't just do the bits they lack for them, you think about how to build those skills. Sure people might consider that appallingly wet, but I find it leads to much more constructive ways forward.

@firesidetartan
Don't lose sight of the 16 year old in front of you in your quest to 'build the best 25 year old'

A fair point.

@flyingsuitcase

Your comment on the framing is absolutely on-point. I'll make a better effort to do this.

The only chore that's a real bone of contention timing-wise is the dishwasher - if it's not done it affects everyone for the rest of the day. Doing his own chores is less of an issue. If he doesn't tidy his room once a week, his room doesn't get hoovered and I don't change his sheets.

I put his clothes in the washing machine. His job is to hang them. I fold them and he puts them away.

When working, the first priority is always to get all homework done, then it's anything the tutor set and then revision for which he shows me notes. When he was told he just had to do homework in whatever time it takes, he did the absolute minimum, got appalling grades and leapt onto his PS4. By appalling, I mean 10%.

I've always been very careful to frame comments in terms of current behaviour or problems rather than nature - so I would never call him lazy, or stupid or disorganised. I will use your skill framing idea - it's very helpful.

I must admit both of mine were done with schooling at 16 and couldn’t wait to leave. There has been a few bumps in the road because of Covid and they have lost everything and had to reinvent themselves to find other work but hopefully as soon as things get back to normal people will be throwing parties and getting married with big receptions and they can return to normal.
In the meantime my youngest is learning another language and has taught himself another “career” which he now works at for 8-10 hours per day

@Bythemillpond

In the meantime my youngest is learning another language and has taught himself another “career” which he now works at for 8-10 hours per day

That sounds amazing! May I ask what it is?

He is teaching himself Portuguese and is now stock trading. He has done hours and hours of research and had saved up some money from when he was working.
He is definitely ADHD and the hyper focus has helped.
My only issue is he is spending 16 hours each day glued to graphs and share prices and researching different companies and I am worried about his health as he has definitely put on weight during the lockdowns

Ok. I think you could tweak the chore routines to make it a bit less flashpointy but it sounds like that's not the real issue.

Would he accept his maths tutor doing some study skills work with him? It wouldn't have to be presented as "now we will stop doing maths and start doing study skills".

I was struck by this: "He is quite a shy lad who suffers from social embarrassment and covers it up with a know-it-all attitude.". I wonder if his confidence in his studies is rock bottom at the moment. I would be tempted to take the pressure off on the revision and just get him to concentrate on getting his grades up for now. Once he does this his confidence will rise and his notes will be in better nick, and the revision will feel much less daunting. He has got time on his side. I should say I have an anxious autistic child, and I am perhaps too inclined to think that taking the pressure off is the answer to everything!

Lastly I don't know if there are commercial things that could help with his organisation. Something called Study Buddy is always presenting itself to me on FB but I have no idea if it's any good. I sat my DD down to discuss her task management and she felt that different coloured sticky notes are the answer to everything, so we have gone with that. I hear some kids respond really well to using calendar apps and reminders in their phones.