Why do parents give themselves so much hassle.....I'm talking ' bedtimes'..

[mozhe]

.....my neighbour has been up and down our stairs,( they are staying chez mozhe as new windows being put in...),for the best part of 4 hours !!! Trying to settle her 4 DCs,( aged 5 months- 9yrs ).She says it's like this every night.....
The mozhe DCs go to bed when they are tired...it varies a bit from night to night but generally about 10.30/11pm...the whole tribe is asleep within 5 mins !!They have all been allowed to develop their own preferences/habits as to where/when/how they fall asleep...surely this is commonsense ?

mozhe - I tend to agree with you to a certain extent for similar reasons. I'm out at work most of the day and I also want to spend time with my kids. My eldest DS is some of the best company I know TBH. And we have also gone for the 'bedtime is when you get tired' rule. But we still make them go to bed rather than letting them hang around till they drop. My DD is hanging by 8 but my DS#1 would happily stay awake till midnight, but he goes to bed between 9 and 10. My littlest goes to bed about 8. It simply wouldn't work if we said 'bedtime is 7 for all of you - get used to it!'. My parents have tried it when they've looked after them and it was a waste of time.

There is also the issue of when hw gets done, meals get eaten, baths get taken and stories get read. By the time I'm home and have picked up the kids (DH gets home after 6) it's always a rush to get everything done and we physically couldn't do it all by much earlier than we do.

How lovely that your children are able to extend their day and adapt around your full time hours. Does the nanny deal with the overtiredness when you're not there, Mozhe?

I'm surprised young children that go to bed at 11pm can get up for school refreshed the next day. Surely their school work suffers?

We have had the opposite problem with overtiredness - my younger stepson got terribly overtired this winter because his regular bedtime was far too late for his needs and he needed to go to bed earlier - but the evening routine had been "set in stone" and he couldn't get to bed earlier.

We made some changes and now he can go to bed when he chooses and he is much, much more rested.

The point being - it's silly to set children's bedtimes according to parental needs or some outside diktat, you should let them find their own way, with of course some guidance from parents.

Its so easy to look at other people's parenting choices and criticise- much harder to try to understand why your friend has made those choices. They might not be ideal, but there will be reasons why its happened. If they're not the best choices, seeing her as not having any common sense isn't going to be helpful is it? I have had nearly 2 years of struggling with sleep (bedtime and night waking) and if I suspect at least 1 friend thinks we've 'made a rod for our own backs' and it makes me feel defensive, even though she would never ever say/imply that. I don't like the waking etc., but for us its just a consequence of our parenting choices and our boy's never ending teething, and I don't expect other people to understand cos they're not me, but I do expect a sympathetic hug after a bad night, and a cup of tea. And it doesn't hurt people to do that, even if in their heads they're thinking 'fool'!

I personally hate it when I find myself looking at others and thinking 'god I'd never X Y Z', and am trying, especially with friends, to give myself a mental kick and remember I don't know everything. Judgement is for the child abuse and neglect, other stuff probably just adds to the diversity of humanity.

Looks to me like there's a difference in style between the UK and France - vive la difference!

We always liked to have a bit of peace when they were out of the way and always wanted the nanny to give them fewer naps whereas for her it suited her to have them sleeping but that was a short phase. Intersting how different mmy twins are - one has always gone to bed later and needed less sleep and the other needs an hour more but is always up first. We have to shake the other one awake at 7.30am.

My sister has had awful sleep problems with her twins since they were born but I do think it's partly her fault. They go to bed far too early so it's not surprising they wake at 4.30am, 5am full of beans.

So for adult peace of mind, for some adults like me, it can be nice to know if it's after 9 or whatever children will not be around and you can have a bit of peace (this completely goes out of the window when you have teenagers and more to a 24/7 type home).

Mohze lives in France so things are a little different.

I have family in Spain and their children have routine but just not the same as us. They have a quiet time mid afternoon and then are later to bed. Despite this they are still in school by 8.15 in the morning.

Do what ever works or you - I think mohze just means that whatever her neighbour is doing doesn't appear to be working!

'..., other stuff probably just adds to the diversity of humanity.'

That's exactly what I think.

I find it intriguing to discover other parenting styles;
the more alien from my POV, the more stimulating.

Makes me question my own approach and gives me new ideas.
S'always room for improvement/enlightenment!

Saggar - yes, my sister used to live in Spain and the neighbours' children would be up until 11 or 12 every evening, and at school as usual the next morning.

Bedtimes and mealtimes are pretty cultural and you have to adapt not only to your own biological sleep needs but also to the ambiant culture.

My parents are great at NOT interfering and the only advice my Dad offered without being asked was, "Get DD to bed at a decent time so that you can have some adult time!" He's right too. DH and I put DD to bed at 7pm and then have time together as a couple. It suits us, but each to their own.

I agree with whoever said that it could be the change in environment.

Dd goes to bed at 7, 7.30..she is usually nattering away for 10 mins & then alseep. But we have just been away & she wanted me in her room every 5 minutes, same as when we first moved to Oz, then moved houses here.

It is quite likely that they need reassurance that mum will come when they 'need' her.

Rather than critisize, maybe offer some form of help?

I have heard that for proper growth and development small children need about 10 hours of sleep at night. If they are in bed much later than 8, it is unlikely that they get enough sleep. DS gets a bath, then a story and a cuddle. Then lights out. He then sleeps. Maybe I am lucky, but I believe routine is everything. But I started this exact routine when he was about 6 months - may not have worked so easily if I had started it when he was older.

Agree with evenings being grown up time. Otherwise dh and I would never catch up with each other.

rantmum - just out of interest, how much time do you all have as a family in the evening when everyone is back from work/school and before bedtime?

It obviously works for you Mozhe, but I imagine your neighbour thinks your approach is equally bizarre. I agree with belgo, it takes a a bit of effort to establish a routine - don't think letting the kids do whatever they feel like really constitutes a routine. French do keep their kids up later - it's true that with the sort of hours many mums work (certainly in Paris) they would never see their kids at all if they didn't keep them up (several of my husband's colleagues have the kids collected from school by the nou nou who looks after them til mum gets in around 7.30-8pm). There was a whole thread about this contrast in parenting styles earlier this week. I can imagine that if you haven't seen them all day you would want to spend a bit of time with them in evening (otherwise why bother having them at all) by the same token if you've spent all or part of the day with them it's good to have a bit of child-free time in the evening. As for what is best for the kids - well that's a whole other can of worms!

Only about an hour (if dh gets back from work early enough). I sit at the table and talk with ds while he eats (we dont do tv eating) and then when dh comes home (usually 7 -7.30)we spend the last hour (or half hour )before bedtime playing games with ds - or go to the beach or play in the garden. DH does the evening routine with ds (unless he is travelling for his job) sometimes, so that he has time with him alone each day too. Then after 8 -8.30 pm bedtime dh and I eat and have time alone together. It is not alot of family time but on weekends we ensure that we do alot of family stuff and eat all of our meals sitting together. It means having to be quite prescriptive about how we live our lives. I know that ds is getting about 10 hours at night - he wakes at around 6.30, and I also know that when he starts school we have a routine that means he is rested and able to get himself up without any prodding from me.

Only about an hour (if dh gets back from work early enough). I sit at the table and talk with ds while he eats (we dont do tv eating) and then when dh comes home (usually 7 -7.30)we spend the last hour (or half hour )before bedtime playing games with ds - or go to the beach or play in the garden. DH does the evening routine with ds (unless he is travelling for his job) sometimes, so that he has time with him alone each day too. Then after 8 -8.30 pm bedtime dh and I eat and have time alone together. It is not alot of family time but on weekends we ensure that we do alot of family stuff and eat all of our meals sitting together. It means having to be quite prescriptive about how we live our lives. I know that ds is getting about 10 hours at night - he wakes at around 6.30, and I also know that when he starts school we have a routine that means he is rested and able to get himself up without any prodding from me.

oops double post - also I meant that ds almost always does ds's bath, story, bed routine.

I should add that we are lucky that dh only has a half hour commute (and he goes in to work quite early each day (is in the office by 7.30 everyday) so that he can get as much of the evening as possible and be home by 7-7.30)

dh!!! what is wrong with me? (I was up half the night having an allergy attack - sleep deprived now)

Sounds pretty similar to my routine Rantmum. Children wake naturally around 6.30 to 7am which is the time they have to be up to get ready for school - it can be a pain at the weekend, but at 6 and 4 they are too young to understand the concept of a lie in. IMO makes for a much calmer life all round not to have to drag them from their beds to get ready for school.

We start ds's bedtime routine (tidy toys, play with dh, book, bf, bed - we don't do baths every night) around 9pm. He's 2.1. He won't go earlier. Sometimes he naps in the afternoon and someimes he doesn't, but that makes little difference - except that if he naps too late even 9pm is utopian, so we have to make sure he doesn't nap too late. he sleeps until 7.30 or 8am. I'd much rather have less of an evening than have to get up at 5am with him. Sometimes I do think the 7pm bedtime is idealised a bit too much.

Glad to hear that it seems to work for you Berlin (the school bit is all a bit theoretical for me now because ds is not even 3 yet). Agree about the weekend though (could do with a couple of extra hours!) Dh and I sometimes have a weekend where we alternate lie-ins (me saturday, him sunday) when we are getting too ragged around the edges!

I have a friend who's DS stays up late when she's looking after him (like midnight!), and goes to bed early when the babysitter is around. He still has a nap (is almost 5) during the day, whereas my DS dropped his nap when he was 3. So you could either do naps during the day and a late bedtime (Continental Europe perhaps?) or an earlier bedtime. I personally love putting the kids to bed at 8pm and then having some time to watch adult TV, knit, eat dinner, whatever. And if allowed to stay up late my kids invariably wake up early and are grumpy the rest of the day. Depends on individual child - I think friend's DS was a bit of a whingy nightmare when little, better now as he can cope with the sleep routine.

Exactly what we do Rantmum! Also now the kids are a bit older I'm not averse to sticking them in front of the German cartoon channel or with a video/DVD for an hour or so.