So, serious question, at what age is it OK to leave a child in the car alone while you go shopping?

[ViciousSquirrelSpotter]

DS hates hates hates shopping, with a passion. Every single time we go shopping, he wants to stay in the car and read his book. And I refuse, and he argues that he's eight, but I argue that he's out of sight, I can't see him and I don't know exactly how long I'll be, so he has to come with me.

So, when should I agree? At what age would I not be considered an irresponsible neglectful parent?

I am just not happy about leaving him at the moment. Not for any rational reason at all. He's not irresponsible, he's not going to release the hand-brake, he'll stay in the car and read and not be lonely or scared. I think that part of responsible parenting is about swallowing your fear and allowing your children independence and I don't feel able to do that. Partly because I'm slightly neurotic and partly because I fear that I'll be condemned by the string 'em high brigade for being lazy and irresponsible. For me, leaving my child would not be lazy and irresponsible parenting, on the contrary I'm slightly uneasy that I'm being lazy about insisting he comes with me (it saves me from being anxious about him all the way round the aisles), it would be a terrifying leap of faith which I am dreading doing but know I must at some point if I'm not going to be a neurotic loon.

So what does the mumsnet jury think? What age? And how long for?

A few eeks ago I let ds (6 - 7 in Spetember) go back to the car and finish an icecream while I popped in to M&S and get a couple of things. I watched him until he got into the car before going in to the shop. He loved the sense of responsibilty.

But we have been "ytaining" him from an ealry age: he is very good in car parks, we make him judge the traffic and tell us when it is safe to cross and we have been letting him unlock the car for us and then give us the key when we get in.

As a child of the 60s, I am determined to let him have the independence I enjoyed when I was young. We (younger db and me) were definitely left in cars from an early age. And I was walking to school from about 6. I'm sure it's what gave me the confidence to travel on my own to France when I was 17 (I even sprained my ankle badly, requiring an X-ray on the way back - and still coped)just before going off to uni at 17.5.

SMBK - left alone for the first time at 13, and then at 16 they can get married!

When I went to university I'd already lived on my own for a bit & I could not believe the sheer ineptitude of some of the people (mainly boys) I was in Halls with. One bloke set off the smoke alarms: he was a bit cold one day so turned on ALL the hotplates in the kitchen. He was studying engineering so he wasn't actually stupid, just had no idea.

My mother used to go away on business quite a lot from when I was about 17 (my dad didn't live in the area) & I was well able to take care of myself. She went on holiday for a week when I was 15 - my dad lived locally then & would pop in to check on me. Ok, I DID have a party, but I cleaned up afterwards & she never found out.

LOL I've just remembered a boy at university whose idea of doing the laundry was taking all his clothes to the launderette and sticking them all in one machine (whites with darks) then folding them up still damp and putting them in his wardrobe along with the dirty clothes. Needless to say, he smelled and had no girlfriend and also ate only baked beans and bread. I can remember ranting that no-one should be allowed to do a degree if they hadn't first passed a self-sufficiency test.

I haven't looked him up on Friends Reunited btw.

Oh you should VSS - he's probably in the Cabinet!

I also remember a boyfriend's brother asking his mother where his socks were. He was 20.

What can you expect from a child of a paranoid parent? Imagine a child who is not allowed to walk to school until they are 13 or left in the house until they are 13.

I wouldn't do it ever, firstly because children help to consume all the stuff we shop for, so should help whether they enjoy it or not, and secondly because if they're going to be left anywhere reading a book, home is better.

Could you point out to your son that if he takes a trolley and tackles a section of the list, the shopping will be done more quickly and there will be more time for everyone (not just him) to read books?

Oh God yes Hallgerda, this is what I should do.

I am in an ongoing battle to convince him that he is an active participant in the family, not a passive recipient.

He is resistant to this message. Extremely resistant. [weary icon]

But I've realised that that's one of the reasons I don't want to leave him in the car - I want him to be a bloody participant, I'd rather sit in the car reading while someone did my shopping as well, frankly.

In fact, maybe next time I'll suggest that I sit in the car while he does the shopping.

Side issue, the point about if they're old enough to be left in the car, they're old enough to leave at home may be true, but leaving them at home could be for a far longer period, depending on how long the drive to the supermarket takes (both ways), or if you combine the supermarket trip with other things, etc etc.