Calling all MNers with large families....who work.

[mozhe]

We are expecting our 6th baby in october....all of them will be under 8. We are pretty well organised now, and have a marvellous nanny,( whose been with us since day 1 with our first ), and we will be having a maternity nanny too for the first 6-8 weeks. I usually go back to work at the 8-12 week stage part time and build it up to fulltime from there, but this time am thinking of doing it a bit differently. One MNer who posts regularly,( and speaks a lot of sense imo ), recommends going back much earlier at the 2 week point...I 'm seriously wondering about doing this as I think it would really help me establish a routine quicker. I live in France and work as an academic at the moment.I still breasfeed my twin daughters aged nearly one. Has anyone else tried this ? I'm genuinely interested in other peoples' experiences.

On the other hand, it must be fantastic to have a career that you enjoy so much that you don't actually want to have some time off I looked forwards to not having to work for 6 months to be honest.

Mumblechum, staying at home with children is a full time job and I'm sure Xenia and Mozhe nannies would be more than a little annoyed to hear people say it wasn't. Just because some parents look after their own children and don't receive payment for it doesn't make it any less of a job.

mozhe you can only really follow these "different pattern" though if you can afford a nanny. My 2yo goes to nursery 3x a week while I work. The nursery is open 7.45-6 which dictates her routine basically (although due to DH and I doing slightly staggered hours she is usually there 8-5.15). Because the other children do not nap she does not nap so needs to be in bed by 7.30 at the very latest, then wakes up at 7. She could have a 2 hour nap and go to bed at 9, quite easily but 6yo DS needs to be in bed before 8 in order to get up at 7 the next day.

Bozza- why not ask nursery if your LO can nap, and if not why ? That is a lot of sleep for a 6 year old...he might be ok with a bit less ? and then you could do more things in the evening, even an extra hour can really benefit families i think...or getting up earlier,( on weekends perhaps...we get up at the same time as during the week and ALL nap after lunch...more gets done I think )
It is quite different looking after someone elses' children, of course that is a job, but being a parent isn't.

Lots of interesting points on the thread. What is bodning - different natural cultures on bonding. The British remember didn't really seem to go in for it much until not so long ago in some groups of them. We're known throughout the world as a country where children are abused by adults, beaten and sent away to board. I am sure most British parents were never like that as it's so against the natural instinct but we certainly dont' have a very good reputation and have always given hugely much more to the RSPCA than NSPCC.

When you get into the presence or absence of a mother it's interesting. If I am working full time and had the twins but was in the same house is that fine or do I need to be touching them for a certain percentage of the day? I actually found that easier than commuting the city and expressing with the first three children. The nanny came and told me when they needed feeding and I'd come out of my office and feed them (I fed them at the same time so not so easy to do that at a desk because you have a sweet little baby boday stretched out one at each side.

With the older 3 (and this was 22, 20 and 18 years ago now) I expressed. They didn't sleep well at night so with very little ones I;d be feeding every few hours each night too. That'ds a lot of breast feeds and as most mothers know it can be fairly continuous. You get in at 6 and feel you've done nothing but feed all evening if it's a difficult evening.

But yes I agree you have to keep on the expressing during the day every few hours which is a hassle and nothing like as much fun as feeding directly but it works and I found I could fully breastfeed at weekends and holidays too. But most of them stopped feeding at 8 months to 18 months which is not a very long period even if you go back to work early.

Looking after other people's children is work but looking after your own isn't

Well, I agree that being a parent is not a job......its a responsiblity and a lifestyle choice.

I'm expecting my 4th and simply cannot afford childcare in order to return to work despite the fact I have professional qualifications and had a relatively good salary. Even if I could return to work I would not go back after 2 weeks....possibly 6-8 weeks but a fortnight is simply not enough time to welcome a new addition into the family and establish a maternal bond. having carried a baby fro 9 months, I think you owe it that child to be there 24/7 in the first weeks as that familiar and trusted person. This may be a sentimental and emotional opinion but nevertheless I see a newborn baby as more than a feeding robot.

I remember watching a documentary about a tribe in Africa. The women were back working in the fields three days after giving birth. The babies were strapped to the women backs. The men sat around a tree deciding what the baby should be called.

Mozhe, if you want to go back to work two weeks after having your baby, go ahead. It seems to me that you are already organised to cope with another addition.

My mother had 5 children and worked the whole time because she had to. She went back to work when I was 6 weeks old. She is 74yo old and as fit as an ox. She supported my decision to go back to work, albeit, part-time, when my DTS were 7 months old.

I will say this though. Sometimes when there is a chance that you may lose something, your perspective changes. My DTS spent their first 3 weeks in the special care unit and that is when I realised that my initial decision to go back to work full time was going to change. There is more to life than work and I really enjoyed my work before I had my boys. Now, I enjoy my boys more than work because they are my legacy, not my work.

Well put Speedy

CD, that's where we disagree. I have always felt bonded. The love you feel when they are born, the breastfeeding (I suppose we need some bottle feeders on the thread on that topic but the release of oxytocin when you feed etc certainly helps bonding in my view), the gorgeousness of babies - all that is there if you go back to work early. I adore babies and all my children. But I didn't find there were broken bonds, life long trauma or whatever because I was going back to work and nor presumably do most men.

It's a fallacy designed to make gullible women feel guilty and stay at homers wrongly self righteous.

I have no problem with Xenia's decision to return to work early - ok, I'd never do it, and I don't particularly approve , but that is her decision and actually part of me rather admires her ability to have a fulfilling career and so many children.

What I find strange is her seeming inability to realise that her lifestyle is NOT that of the majority of women, in fact it is rather unusual these days. If anyone questions her decisions, that is because of some sort of consipiracy theory, or, as below, because we have fallen victim to 'a fallacy designed to make gullible women feel guilty'.

It is this sense that Xenia has that she, and only she, sees the truth about the world that I find odd and rather worrying.

I must say I find Xenia's views quite refreshing. She seems to love her kids, and her family seems to be a harmonious one which works out well. More of a genuinely modern approach, I guess...

Too often it's seen as the woman's responsibility to pay for childcare out of her salary, then people say 'oh, her salary doesn't cover childcare so why work?' , whereas the childcare should be worked out on the basis of all family income (mum and dad)..

it's a tricky one but if we insist on contributing to the world of work as well as kids, and being whole people, then we may have to bite the bullet a bit. Having said that, I personally wouldn't have had the physical or mental strength to go back after 2 weeks, as I really felt the baby needed me at home. went back after 3 months, which was perfect as lucky enough to have a nanny, so he quickly got used to her. I would say then, why not have a bit of a rest at home, using nanny to help out as much as poss, and then go back to work later, after a few months. But if you feel ready, go for it!

OK things have moved on. Mozhe, DD could have a nap at nursery but there is such a thing as peer pressure that prevents it! She did until about 2 weeks ago (and she will be 3 next week). We are OK with things as they are. And yes DS does need a lot of sleep. But we get up only slightly later at weekends and I work 3 days so we have a routine going that works OK.

I know that 1 in 4 women with under 5s don't work so I'd never suggest going back full time with small children is normal for all women. I also know there are about 250,000 househusbands in the UK too and many unemployted parents as well. Also most single mothers like me don't work I think sttistically and many are on benefits.

Jjust as some parents on the thread are surprised a mother (but presumably not a father) is prepared to leave a small baby to continue working I can't understnad how anyone can enjoy the manual labour and domestic service that is being home with lots of under 5s. It's like bing a lavatory cleaner at heathrow air port on the early shift except you don't get paid and it's 365 days a year. I can't imagine how anyone likes being a housewife but obviously a lot of you do and some bits of it I could like I suppose.

No, my life is absolutely nothing like being a cleaner at Heathrow...

We live in a beautiful 1929 flat (no architectural relation whatsoever of an airport terminal) which was redecorated with new bathrooms, kitchen, appliances etc 18 months ago (never used by anyone else, quite unlike a public building). I have a cleaner/ironer, someone to clean the windows and all the maintenance is done by the management firm. Plus of course we have a gardienne to bring up the post, call out plumbers, electricians etc.

The only household chores I do are washing, shopping (but the boring stuff is delivered) and cooking. We see a lot of friends, go out and about in Paris and travel abroad frequently. I have a lot of time to read. I wear nice (albeit casual) clothes. I go to good restaurants. We visit parks and museums.

Really, Xenia. Life at home is not drudgery.

For a lot of people the housework still needs to be done even if you are out at work all day. It doesn't go away magically. Not everyone can afford cleaners, nannies, gardeners, etc even with both parents working. So parents end up starting again when they get home from work, leaving little time for the children.
The childcare costs would come out of the family income so families have to decide which parent stays home. They decide who would be better suited to stay home and which salary would be most missed.
Staying home has huge benefits in that you are very involved with your child's early life experiences. I enjoyed going out to work and loved the job I did. But nothing prepared me for how devastated I felt to leave my baby to someone else to bring up. I do think that whoever has the day-to-day care of a baby/toddler/child gets to know them much better than someone who can't spend that much time with them. Having a primary carer who is there for the long-haul also has huge benefits to how secure the child feels as it grows. While I consider it should be the choice of the individual whether they delegate that responsibility to another adult (although, unfortunately some don't have a choice), I do feel that the ideal situation is if a parent is able to take that responsibility on themself.
For me, the guiding of my children's young lives is far more important and individual a thing than any work outside the home I could do.

I don't know anybody, either, who likes housework. It's a chore. Maybe there is someone out there that likes it but I've never met them. However, the 'domestic service' for under-5s is something that you are willing to do for the people you love.

Quite happy to delegate it as are many men.
I just think you are very involved with under 5s even if you work full time. Okay you don't spend as many hours with them as you otherwise would but you still spend quite a lot and that is enough for many fathers and mothers.

Anna, I think you are slightly different from most in the help you have.

I suppose it comes down to if I could spend 6 hours with my baby or 6 hours doing my job I would always have preferred the job. But if I had to choose between not seeing my chid for 5 years and working then of course I'd stay home. However it's not such a stark choice. You can have close loving relationships with under 5s and get back to work quickly and it works fine.

I agree about 2 jobs. Obviously try to avoid part time work and having to do all the cleaning etc. Only go back full time if you have ehlp or as we in our early poor days did - share things very equally within a couple where you have another half at all. WOmen are idiots if they go back to work and then do all the house stuff and have idle husbands.

As I was reading over this thread I felt quite disturbed at the level of 'cattiness' and aggressiveness in some of the comments. If you choose to go to work or rather have to go to work, fine. If you choose to stay home also fine. But what this thread has turned into is each person justifying their decision and I don't think there is any need to do so. We all do what we think is best for OUR children and as such will have to bear or congratulate ourselves on the decisions we have made as our children grow.

Staying at home or working, they both have pros and cons. But I wouldn't dare to knock some one for either. I am a housewife and proud of it. I couldn't, ironically, afford to go to work. My husband earns too much for us to recieve any help with nursery fees, and I earnt too little to make the big spend out worthwhile for me. However, all that said I wanted to stay home with the children. I don't always enjoy it but I think that that is motherhood. But ultimately I would do it again.

Mozhe, only you know your family and ahilst many people can offer their opinions and experiences know this the buck stops with you. Best of luck with the new baby. I hope you enjoy iy!! (Not sacrastic)

Oh and about women who work in the fields 3 days after birth, their babies are usually carried on their backs. Due to the financial situations many of these women are in they have no option but to breastfeed as access to formula etc are dependent on their purse strings.

Xenia we are not men.
Nor do we want to be
Throughout nature ( even Seahorses) he female nurtures the young
Breastfeeding does not a mother make

I do have to say (see my first posts) that Mozhe does sound like she has made her decision and was asking for experiences and suggestions as to how to do it not our opinions as to whether she should do it.

i know that....

NAO

Yawn. I don't know why mumsnet continues to feed Xenia and anna.