the big smacking debate part two

[glitterfairy]

This thread is too big now so have started a new one as this discussion is really important I think anyway.

I agree Glitterfairy, but PLEASE no more WW2 etc, can we stick to just smacking?

I repeat my views. How can you justify smacking a child (or anyone incapable of hitting you back), and still tell them that hitting is wrong?
As parents we should lead by example.

Out of curiosity, How did this debate first get named 'Smacking can affect Schooling"?

Bunglie, do you drink alcohol? Or smoke or drive a car, have sex, get married, have a morgage? All of these things are accepted as normal and (largly) acceptable things for adults to do that are not accepted as resonable behavior in children. I teach in school. I have to insist that children wear a school uniform. I don't wear a uniform. Should I be leading by example? ( If so I'd quit, green looks crap on me!)

If you go back to the thread before Bunglie it started because papillon highlighted an article in new zealand which stated that smacking could affect schooling.

My view as you probably know is that you cant justify it and that we should lead by example. I was thinking this whilst walking my dog this morning and thinking I wouldnt hit him why hit a child? Some owners do smack their dogs but I dont think it instills anything other than fear in them.

As far as ww2 goes I think we are all more than happy to leave it but I would say that in an argument like this where examples are used they can be very wide ranging. The problem is of course that it raises issues which can become tangental to the real issue in hand. No pun intended! .

By the way hmb dont like school uniforms at all and think we should ban them too. Yes we are all contradictions but we can at least try to lead by example because if we dont then how do kids learn anything at all?

To pursue your argument if alcohol, sex and marriage are ok for adults and not kids then when they get to be an adult they can start smacking because we do?

I definitely think school uniform should be banned mine was purple and I am a redhead!
With regard to smoking, dinking and driving our children are protected by law from doing so. So why does the law not protect them from violence from parents?

Personally I do not agree with an anti-smacking law because that takes away the control from the parent and gives it to the child, via the state. A ridiculous state of affairs in my opinion. But I still believe in, and it worked for mine 'Time Out'. I just can not justify hitting a child of any age.

Oh, I have to go for a bit now but I don't want you to think I am running away 'cos I'm scared , back later.

Bunglie looks like we all ran away instead! Actually having a well earned rest!

I have to say that on the whole (an this is another drift off topic) I do believe in school uniforms.

They stop excessive competition regarding who has the most designer gear.

Studies show that schools with a uniform tend to outperform those that do not (and rough inner city schools in America are switching to uniform for this reason)

It also reduces the number of children coming to school in totaly inappropriate clothing. We have some girls who will try to come to school dressed, to put it charitably, like prostitutes, and this is not conducive to a good working environment when you are dealing with hormone charged teenagers.

That said, uniforms should also be simple, practical to take care of and cheap to buy and I realise that not all of them are.

Hmmm I just work up after falling asleep and what do I find.....trying to go off on another tangent eh .
To be honest after yesterday I thin people are a bit wary of posting their views on discipline and smacking, so perhaps school uniforms had better prevail.
I sued to sit on my 'panama hat' on the bus until I looked a real sight, they then bought in boatas, not so comfortable

What research Hmb? I'd like to see it.

But the boaters must have looked so chic!!!

The reason I haven't re-entered the smacking debate is that I think that lots of people have said their bit, and are unlikely to change their mind....rather like the GF wars of old.

I hate to think what half of the kids I teach would dress in to come to school. Actualy I have a damn good idea. Year 11 turned up on their last day looking like interviewees for a teen porn film.

I'd have to dig deep. It is one of those oft quoted facts and I don't have a study at my fingertips. It is a generaly held view tho!

Totally agree with hmb re the uniform thing. Our school is very strict about it being worn properly and by getting this bit right it really helps overall order in the classroom.

Simply from a parental point of view I think school uniforms are fabulous: I don't have to think what to put ds1 in every morning; there is no competition about fashionable/labelled clothes; it is not so obvious which parents have pots of money and which are struggling financially as all the children are dressed the same. Ds1 is at only at primary school but when they have MUFTI days many of the girls turn up in the most ridiculous outfits - high heeled strappy sandals, exceedingly short skirts - completely impractical for a day at school. If ds1 didn't have to wear uniform I would probably dress him in my own version of one anyway: jeans, T-shirt, sweatshirt.

My mum taught at a girls school in London hmb where they ahd consistently high standards and no uniform. You could not tell who had money adn who didnt as often the poorest kids came dressed in more expensive looking gear than those with money. It was a comprehensive by the way and parents fight to get their girls in.

Interested as at my school a comprehensive in central London we had uniform but you could tell who ahd designer uniform and who had got a clothing allowance.

If we have school uniforms at all - which I dont like and stops kids from being individuals imo - then why not the french system where the whole country has one uniform?

By the way got very donfused there with the gf wars of old until I realised you meatn gina.

confused cant spell

Found this reporting parental attitude to uniform

www.dfes.gov.uk/pns/DisplayPN.cgi?pn_id=2003_0087

and this quote from the Guardian

In 1999, New York City School board made uniforms compulsory in elementary schools to reduce gang activity and disputes over expensive clothing. Officials also believed the move would make it easier to identify individuals who were not supposed to be on school property. They felt that the fashion for baggy clothes allowed knives and guns to be hidden in over-sized jackets and track-suit bottoms.

Research confirms that people often believe school uniforms make a difference to discipline and behaviour. There is also evidence that it fosters a sense of belonging.

And this is the consensus that I have read in much of the trade press

I just don't buy this theory that school uniform stops kids from being individuals - how?

I agree with Marthamoo on the uniform thing.
My dd starts nursery in September and i don't 'think' it's compulsary till reception but when i've visited most of the kids are in uniform. I have a parents evening tomorrow and i hope it's recommended for littlies

It will take all the hassle off choosing appropraite clothing each morning, and i think they all look gorgeous anyway+

Glitterfairy, you must have met some very meek and mild teenagers if you think that putting them in uniform robs them of their individuality!!!

Where I teach the uniform is the uniform and there are no designer variants on it. School trouders or skirt, polo shirt with school logo, sweat shirt with school logo. Full stop!

I have found that it does help behaviour in and out of school. And it stops the endless arguments that you would have with the kids about what constitutes appropriate dress.

I also think at this young age,(dd will be three and a half), that it will get it into dd's head that she goes to school every day and the uniform will prepare her.

I'm not convinced about the theory that uniforms increase school performance, but I' d like dd's nursery to have one to avoid battles on clothing in the morning, nad she's only 3!!
I can just imagine what she woold get up to when at school if she had a choice...

I remember having a huge argument with my mum at 12, one day when I wanted to go to school with a short skirt!!!

I think uniforms will save me from these battles.

As far as levelling children is concerned, there will always be other ways of telling who has money and hasn't, how theier mothers dress, tehir holidays, addresses etc.

Thank you hmb but much of this is parental views that uniform does this and that which is all very well but not really proof that it does.

I guess my view is that kids dress to show stuff about themselves and this is part of their creativity. I believe that they should be encouraged to be like this at school and home.

I have never liked uniforms and when I see the kids on the days they are allowed to dress in casual clothes I feel that they all look better adn more relaxed.