How do I improve my relationship with my daughter?

[unicorn]

She is 7 and I just feel at a loss.
She was a very difficult baby/extreme tantrummy toddler and now is often (at home) a highly defiant child.
She seems to get a 'kick' from upsetting things/people (particularly winding up her db who is 4)- and me. She doesn't 'help' at all when asked etc and turns every little request (like getting dressed in the morning)into an ordeal. She doesn't seem to have any respect for any of her things,and she doesn't take care of them.
I know I sound very negative towards her because frankly I am - I have had an uphill struggle with her to be honest.
Of course I don't want this situation to continue, or get any worse, but,what on earth can I do when it really feels that she prefers disharmony/disruption to a cohesive family?

(dh has problems with her too - but they are very much concentrated on my/her relationship)

thanks for reading, any suggestions appreciated.

anyone?

Is she an only one? My ds is 7 (youngest of four) and physically can't shut up when asked. He has to have the last word and so do I! I sometimes have to let it lie because it's attention seeking and he's the one who suffers in the end. I'm the adult and sometimes I catch myself really yelling because he winds me up so much. I'll really bollock him and he stomps upstairs to his room. Then, he'll blow a raspberry at me and instead of ignoring it I'll race upstairs yelling again. Try and ignore the crappy behaviour. She's trying and suceeding to divide mum and dad. On no account let her know, lie if you have to and keep the rows for out of earshot. She may feel that she can't stop and may say horrid things that she doesn't mean but just come out of her mouth. My Ds made me cry a few days ago and then said calmly that he didn't mean it today. They just don't get that words hurt adults for longer than kids and we feel them more because of our "guilty" complex. It isn't you, it's her. Sorry just re-read and she has a db. Is he lovely and easy going? Was she jealous of him? Maybe do the girly thing, without making a huge thing of it. Don't expect her to be grateful because she has learned behaviour, but maybe try half an hour at the shops with her and maybe 2 quid. She can have it for good behaviour and go somewhere really girly and coo over the hairbands etc. Nail varnish would be good and if she has a friend, invite her over and do their nails. Let dh have db for an hour and really try to enjoy yourself. It's hard when there's resentment there, she has to learn that rewards have to earned and maybe mummy will feel better about stuff. HTH

thanks jollymum.
yes, ds is generally a much easier/sunnier character who seems to want us all to be happy.
dd however, seems to thrive on shouting/rows and general unhappiness.
There is undoubtedly some jealousy - but it isn't just him - she had these negative traits as a baby/toddler.
I know I need to rethink how I deal with her, as we have tended to see her as difficult, and so voila she is, self fulfilling prophecy that desperately needs to be change.
Not easy though especially when you feel on a downward spiral.

How about making a real fuss of her -girly time.

Take her shopping, have a hot choc in a grown up cafe.

Give her a manicure, curl upon the sofa with a girly dvd. Dh nd ds go elsewhere for the day.

A lot of this behaviour may be a need for your attention. I know it feels like rewarding naughtiness but it might reap dividends to spend a little time just her and mummy.

The attention thing sounds absolutely right - but I have spent a lot of 1-1 time with her,(taking her theatre,cinema - she doesn't like shopping - I have really tried)and it never seems to be enough.

We are not enjoying each other, she must be picking up on my bad vibes, as I am on her behaviour. Catch 22.

Hmmmm.

Have you tried reasoning w/her. Along the lines of "We could be much better friends if we didn't get cross w/each other so much. I'd really like that, wouldn't you? How can we make this happen?"

tbqh I feel I have tried everything - she doesn't want to listen to my reasoning.
I guess I have never been very confident in my parenting with her, as she has often seemed a law unto herself. So I imagine I haven't been as consistent as should be.
It is obviously worse now because of the summer holidays - she gets bored very easily, and is high maintenance (some kids are not as demanding ie they can entertain themselves for longer etc)

I may look into taking her away for a day/night just me and her - perhaps that would help a bit.

Hmm, maybe too much attention then. Sounds like you're worrying too much about her and that's the attention she's seeking. How about ignoring the bad behaviour and her, without being negative, and just inviting her to join in the family group when she's happier? Make a space for her to sit in and make sure she knows that only happy people can be in that space and needs to learn the hard way. You've been a nice mummy and are worrying yourself sick about her because she's being difficult. Well, this is life and in life there's compromise. Maybe she needs to learn that life doesn't revolve aroung her and that her db gets nice things because he's being pleasant. He's not an angel but he makes the effort. Try hard not to shout, any attention counts as attention for her. Plus, it'll really piss her off if you don't react!

Ooh jollymum are you my bad cop? (Stern suggestions as opposed to my fluffy, wet ones )

I like weekend away idea, unicorn. Bit of uninterrupted mum time.

Don't be scared of her. She's a little girl and if you give in now, she'll rule the roost. Don't be scared of offending/hurting her feelings. You're in charge! My DS (16) is like this. I overcompensated for a divorce and he walks all over me. When I really lose it he tends to laugh or fights back really hard.Imagine me and dh one at each door and him fighting like a caged animal because he won't/can't lose face. Try imagining him going over next doors roof. He did it! If you say to a 7 year old she's grounded, mentally and physically you can win. Hold the door handles if necessary but don't give in because I did and he knows he's won.Get tough now and don't let this cause rows between your dh and you.

sassy, call me Arnie! Been there done that etc.

I agree with all the suggestions here lol!

I think you are right unicorn, its turned into a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Is there also perhaps an element that, when you organise something that is supposed to be "fun", you maybe get annoyed or frustrated that it doesnt go exactly to plan (because you have made the effort etc)?

I think basically ignoring the bad behaviour ie tantrums etc is a good way to go. She seems to thrive on attention generally. Lots of praise for the good things, and also some mum and daughter one on one time - but let HER lead it. Do whatever she wants - whether that is putting red lipstick on your face (and probably all over it too ) and bright blue eyeshadow whilst painting the whole of your hands whilst attempting to paint your nails etc.

Ask yourself also, whether some of the issues or things you tell her off for, are actually worth the battle?

Unfortunately it already has jollymum - and we have loads of rows.
We both didn't have a clue how to deal with her as a baby and dh tended to opt out when the going was getting tough - so left it to me. He hasn't really backed me up enough, so she hasn't had consitent parenting.
I am worried about her getting bigger - I agree she needs reigning in now - otherwise it will be even more hellish.
(I have done the holding the door handle many times - she has never willingly done timeout etc -behaviour management has been really tough - and made me feel totally inadequate.)
thanks for input both of you!

vvv thanks, yes I think I do get p*ssed off because she doesn't seem to appreciate anything.

Perhaps we have overcompensated for her difficult baybyhood,in terms of attention and material things, and she has doesn't actually know how to get things without playing up iyswim?

This needs a huge change to correct though, as I feel we are sailing on a very rocky course.

I think if you change, she will

Be consistent, I am not and have suffered for it.Maybe your HV could help, mine offered to talk to my kids for me and I wish I'd let her. Maybe she could be the "bad cop" Expain to her that this is where it stops, now. How is she at school? Let me guess, really bright, a few freinds and could be doing better? Says she hates school but the teachers love her? Very kind, when needed especially with SN kids? Just my thoughts, but if you don't help her now, your DB will follow because he'll see her getting attention and want it himself. You and dp need to sit down, maybe with a third party, and thrash it out. He needs to be consistent and stay strong for you. DON'T argue in front of evr or bitch, she'll pick up on it and thrive on it. Plaster that smile on and wait until bedtime. Talking of which, does she go to bed on time or play up until you want to scream?

Please don't think it's you. I watch the programmes where the kids are miraculously changed into angels and think that mostly it's ignorance, not bad parenting. It doesn't take a genius or a physcologist to work out that if you constantly scream swear words and abuse at your kids, they'll copy. It's all very well talking about stuff and my god, nanny jo does wonders but let's talk about reality. My kids would act differently if there were tv cameras around and they were being filmed. What happens the other 50 weeks of the year when you're on your own, facing life and daily stuff and maybe your dp hasn't been "educated" to nanny jo's standards (not asseptable!)What goes on behind closed doors is not what people see and it's so hard to be one person outside and feel like a shitty mum inside, who has totally wrecked their dd by trying to care and maybe trying too hardYour life does not and should not revolve around you and your dd. You have a son and a dp and she has to learn this. You also have a you and every time she flings something back at you you step back a little into that fog of guilt and could I have done things differently. She was a bugger of a baby, so what. She's 7 now and no-one wants a brat. She's your little DD, remember when you llooked at her that first time? Did you think 7 years later it would be like this? Get things in proportion and out-think her.

she's fine at school - doing ok (doesn't really apply herself as she could do etc) She is very physical (does gym, swimming and tennis)and thows herself around the furniture a lot. Isn't one for spending time on her own - in her room, reading or listening to tapes etc.
Going to bed is usually a pain yes. Lst night she was sat near to our door (we went to be early to read) making a banging noise - result was predictable. I ignored for as long as I could and then got up and got really annoyed with her. Why was she being so mindless etc.
Could she be jealous of when me and dh don't argue? She seems to have to disrupt any calm.

Hi Unicorn, nothing useful to add - just wanted to say "Me too !" - my dd is not quite 6 and is an only child and I've just posted about her tantrums on another thread "Too old for tantrums"

I am just hoping for a miracle !

Insecure? ASD? (sorry, just a thought?) Jealous of time you and dh have but she doesn't want it with you. Does she favour DH because he doesn't nag as much and lets her have her way for peace and quiet's sake? Sounds like she's a bugger but a bit sad IMYKIW. That's so like my kids. Last year (bearing in mind he was 15) I locked myself in our bedroom and my ds went on and on and on. He tapped on my door (I turned up the TV so he tapped louder), he said things like "well, if you don't answer that means yes, then , ok, that means yes I can go out etc etc" and I just ignored him. It took an hour, a bag of sweets, earplugs and a bottle of wine but he gave up! I can't believe how happy I was, I'd won. Sad thing is, it shouldn't have got to that stage and although I wasn't in the wrong, he woke the rest of the kids up and we all had a bad night. Result?- grumpy me and kids next day, he didn't care and I didn't start a row because it was easier to keep quiet. I am a little scared of him because he can be overpowering (like my ex) but at the end of the day, he's still my baby and will always be. He has to make mistakes and so does your dd.Does she have friends round and how does she behave in front of them?Bet you try and be perfect mum for her and hope that all her friends think you're cool. Bet she kicks off big time when they go home? She's a little girl and you can win this battle, but hopefully she'll reaalise that you're not meant to be battling and that it's not a competetion for affection.

Stop her activities-tell her that they cost dosh and you're not spending out cash on a miserable moo. Let her earn points for activities. Mind you, my ds (7) would just say he doesn't care anyway, they're stupid and he didn't want to do them anyway We can but try.

the activities are as much for my benefit as hers (ie a break from the intensity- which it sounds like you understand)and she would shrug her shoulders and pretend she couldn't care less.

We looked into adhd a few years ago (we had family therapy unfortunately was a bit of a joke) - it was basically ruled out. I do see elements of oppositional defiance disorder though, but again not significant enough to be noticed by anyone else.

I veer between thinking she needs more of me ... and thinking she actually needs me to be stricter etc.
It is really hard to fathom her needs (it was same as a baby - we couldn't work her out like you are supposed to, instinctively etc)

My mum was talking to me earlier and said words to the effect of "Can't imagine having this discussion 40 years ago when you were young" She's right, I think we try too hard these days and no means no sometimes. Life's a shit and kids have to learn that. Life is competitive, people are rude to you ( especailly bosses) and there are ways to deal with it. BUT, you can't be and shouldn't be disrespectul to your parents because they are the "bosses" until you're 18. Yes, you have a view but while you're little, you go their way. Go your own way when you leave home and hopefully they'll have absorbed enough stuff to get them through life.People in the "olden" days were too busy living to worry about feeling guilty, kids grew up mostly OK and speaking purely for myself, I knew when enough was enough. I said things to my mum that OMG I wish I could take back, because back then you just weren't rude to your parents. It was a big thing and stuck in my mind. My ds has been vile to me and I know he loves me, it's just words to him. He says things that I cringe at, he hears them in the playground and from his brothers and I do tell him they're wrong.Kids need boundaries to feel safe, she's pushing hers and the best way to keep a child with you is to tighten the boundaries up, little by little let them go until one day the gate's open for them. They can go or stay but they always know that in their world, you're always there.

agree about parenting being far more problematic these days.
I would never in a zillion years talk or look at my mother the way she has done to me - but then again that was fear - not really respect I think.

I want respect from her - instead I am getting challenging behaviour on a drip, drip, drip level ie it is not always 'incidents' but general attitude etc.

Interesting about the additional 1:1 time not working. We tried this with out DD1 in a stroppy phase and tried the more attention route.However, we found her much better when we didn?t do the girly treats, coffee shop trips etc etc and got tough, stopped the attention and went back to basics, insisting she tidied her room, had no stropping, early to bed when she got moody, no pudding if she didn?t eat main course etc and she responded so well! My DD def works well with clear boundaries with me a mummy not best friend. As soon as she had to really work for the smallest treat, she seemed to respect us a little more.I think I am going to ahve to wait until she is a lot older until we can find a girly mode to share. Maybe your DD is the same?