Working class parents don't know how to raise children!

[speedymama]

A long time friend of mine is married to an Australian. They are visiting friends and family in the UK with their 2 children. I have met the wife before when we visited Sydney so I'm accustomed to her blunt declarations but this time I really had to control myself.

They were staying overnight at our house and she said that she loved watching Supernanny. She then said that working class people have no idea about raising children and they were the reason why society was breaking down. I was completely poleaxed by that comment and did not respond. DH and I are both from poor working class backgrounds but her father is a millionaire and her DH, who I met at university, is very middle class. She then repeated the comment again later on and DH & I held our tongues for the sake of harmony. I wanted to point out that parenting is not a class issue etc but I know that this would have led to a heated argument (she is very strident when it comes to arguing her point) and I did not want to create an atmosphere, especially as there were 4 children under the age of 3 in my house. I was so relieved when they left the following morning.

What would you have done?

Ahem, it sounds to me that the woman was actually trying to goad you rather than simply making crass statements because she believed in them ..

I think you did well to be a peace maker and gloss over it for the sake of harmony. But for the sake of your blood pressure don't have them to stay again

that's right. find somw way of being unavailable. try moving and not letting them know!

speedymama - can totally appreciate how hard it is to bite your tongue, esp in face of sweeping statements. I remember years ago, the wife of my dh's friend announced that all Sun readers should be forcibly sterlised. The horror of it was we saw these friends a couple of months ago and her dh said to my dh "remember what she said that time about the Sun readers?! she's really calmed down" ... but was referring to ME!!!!

But back to your issue - hate the way the term "working class" is used to generalise a whole section of society. What I guess she was really talking about was social deprivation, poor education, poverty, unemployment, etc. And even if you can make the link between that and poor parenting (and I'm not sure you can), I think it's very difficult to then say that "they" (i.e. the people who are unfortunate enough to be stuck in this situation) are the reason society is breaking down!!!

And not even going to comment on her working mother comment. OK then I am. I find that it's so often the people who are in the position of not HAVING to work, who are the most vociferous about it. E.g. MIL - had her first child 45 years ago when times were very different and her salary didn't account for substantial chunk of household income and pensions etc weren't such a big issue. I work 3 days a week and said to her the other day that I think it's the perfect solution but got the same sceptical, disapproving, pitying look you did. GNRGHGHHHH!!!!

I am very proud to be working class. The day I call myself middle class I will cut my arms off, its a ridiculous notion devised by people who want a bit more 'status' and want to impress their friends.

Oh Johnny has a BMW and works in middle managemtn, we are middle class now dont you know. Reminds me of that harry Enfield sketch

What I really CANNOT understand is people opening their mouths like that AT ALL about any controversial subject. I can be pretty opinionated but I keep my opinions to myself, certainly in regards to people whose general stance on life I'm not sure of. There are people out there who like to wound, full stop. Takes all sorts. Just wouldn't have anything more to do with them that's all

I don't think attacking the working classes has much relevance. She could have been targeting any group of people, it would have been an equally ludicrous thing to say. It seems to my that she said it for effect.

SM.... send her to me! Cheeky mare! I can be pretty strident too!

I think I would have ended up saying
"And australian people have NOOOOOOOO tact, or even basic politeness towards their hosts. It's such a good job we have the good manners to put up with it"

Am very working class indeed (rough council house bringing up) and would say that both the worst and best parents I have met have been from similar backgrounds. There are some wonderful W/C parents out there (best one I ever met had escaped abusive relationship, 5 kids, furniture from skips.... my but was she a loving and tolerant aprent). I think there are just as many problems in M/C famillies, although maybe not as visible? perhaps a lot of the damage done feom parents being never at home / divorce etc is internalised?
I think you need to look at why the council house kids sometimes misbehave? Could it be linked to the additional financial / employment / whatever stress that ahs landed their parents into the council housing bracket anyhow, or indeed the fact that people of lower educational attainment / SN are likely to be in council housing and also to have issues such as depression, which make parenting more of a struggle?

I think the middle classes have more parenting options, certainly. If Tarquin is being 'challenging' at school, Cressida can sign him up for football, playschemes, afterschool club, swimming, can pay for the kit for all these, and as a last resort, can pay for him to see a child psychologist PDQ. If he has sleep issues, he can see a sleep therapist. He can be driven to the library, he can go to afterschool activities because mummy has a car. The food he eats is usually fresh and organic, mummy is a good cook, and because mummy has a car, she has the pick of suppliers for that food.

However, if Tyler has been a little shit all term, what is Nikki going to be able to do about it? Well, first port of call is to knock the crap food on the head, and spend more time with him. All doable. But then what?

Well, the after school things are out. Nikki has a long walk to the school, Tylers sister gets picked up at the normal time, Tyler has to come too or he can't get home. She can take him to the park, of course, but he doesn't want to play with his five year old sister, he wants to play with his mates.

Dinner is something picked up from the local shop on the way back. It will be frozen veg, the fruit's a bit wrinkly, and the only meat they do is processed - she usually stocks the freezer from Iceland once a week and gets it delivered, she can't stock it anywhere else as she can't carry it.

Sleep issues? Psychologist? A long wait on the NHS.

Add to this the fact that Tyler watches Tarquin poncing about in brand new clothes, and chatting excitedly to his besotted teacher about all the afterschool activities he goes to, and by the age of 10, Tyler is one bitter little boy. He feels his life is not fair, he doesn't have as much fun as some people, and he feels this not without justification.

It is in this mood that miners strike, that disgruntled teenagers push dustbins over, and 17 year old girls get pregnant. If you haven't had the best chance to start with, then you watch people who work half as hard get twice as far, you might give up on going anywhere at all.

Tarquin's mummy can always blame that bloody Kosovan nanny, after all.

I'm confused Colditz. Are you saying that the working classes can't help themselves? Agreed, money makes a big difference. Ultimately it's about how you parent, money or not so much of it, middle, working class, whatever.

I think Colditz has it about right. The options are so much fewer if you're broke or live on a council estate where the only shops are an off licence, a chippy and a spar. Yes you can get the bus in, but you can't the food back, you don't have a PC for the internet orders, Dh works long irregular shifts / is on sick because of his back / depression (which in iteself makes you vulnerable to council housing- arranging shifts around childcare means a parent at home and not erning often as not, and the sick just leaves you broke)

In terms of love, kindness I defy anyone tor eally think that W/C parents are any less than their m/c counterparts; interms of opportunity however it's a whole different ball game (why do you think I am at Uni at 33, after all? )

So then, who's the better parenting group? What solutions would you suggest?
It's neither Tarquin or Tyler's fault that they have the background they have. Should Tarquin in some way feel bad because he has had more advantages than Tyler? I understand about differences in earnings and consequential oppportunities and openings. What I don't understand is what your background has to do with whether you've had good parenting or not.
Is it ok. for Tyler to be angry that Tarquin has had the breaks and then go and behave like a thug? (using colditz's example). What's that got to do with parenting? please enlighten.

The worst thing is you are probably reliving the conversation over in your head but this time you are saying witty clever put downs. I hate that when you think I should have said this or that.

I understand why you didn't say anything and even if you had you would probably not have been as articulate as you would like. My DP's sister are real bitches and occasionally I pull them up on something. e.g they will go on and on about how fat some celeb is and I might say actually I think she is really really sexy and they then just shut up like they are not used to anyone saying anything remotely challenging to them. Most of the time though I let them bitch without challenging them and them moan at DP for days.

Of course it's not OK for him to behave like a thug, although probably more understandable (not the same as condoned- I never behaved like one) if all they have to do of an afternoon is go down the aprk with a bottle of Scrumpy (can you guess I am from Somerset? ) or many of the adult role models you know are thugs. Or indeed if you have a hypersensitivity to a foodstuff but your Mum can't geta ccess to the better stuff...

There's no better parenting class, just better parents and worse ones. The way this manifests might be different and somewhat class related (ie a child who rarely gets books as opposed to a child who gets all the books that they want but Mum is always out) but there's no 'crap aprenting' scale.

Anyway we all have our strengths and flaws don't we?

It depends on what you define by successfully raising children too. I want my children to be happy and confident who enjoy life and form close relationships with other people. I can't see what that has got to do with class. The most unhappy people I know who have the most trouble forming close relationships with other people and have very bad relationships with their parents are a couple of my friends who have grown up in upper-middle class families and gone to Eaton. They have perfect manners and I guess they were always well beahved on the outside, I still wouldn't say their parents raised them successfully.

Scrumpy, lethal stuff. Once as a teenager I had half a pint, felt ok, a bit merry, but all was fine. Then I had another half pint, just one little half pint. Not sure if I even managed to finish it. Was completley incoherrant. What happened there FGS? Please explain!!

I would say I was "middle class" for what it's worth. Some of the worst parenting "crimes" I have seen have been perpetrated by the right on middle classes. Makes me cringe.

Have you ever been to a proper cider joint? they have sawdust on the floor, coz it makes your bladder go first....

Lethal stuff! Mind you, do drink cider quite often, bit cliched of me though I know

Good point about definition of successful aprenting- happy kids is about it I think

No, I haven't sounds great. Have you become immune to the stuff?

It's true about the sucessful parenting. When my kids are grown I will consider myself to have done a good job if they are happy and confident and have respect for others. The rest, careers etc. comes second.

No, I stick to the brands (my Dad on the other hand loves his white cider- yeesh, like meths but fruity)

White cider eh? sounds just the ticket. Must remember that one

No, I didn't mean that woring class people can't help being thugs, but I'll try and put it differently.

It's a lot easier to be nice to your children when your life is being nice to you. When you have no money, everything is teetering on the brink of disaster, which in turn makes you less tolerant of kids in general.

So, if you are going to the seaside for a few days, and you are middle class, you have a car, right? So you can drive there, drive around, drive back, keep things in the boot, you have a bit more to spend on eating out and day trips etc. Plus, it's only a few days away, it doesn't matter if it all goes tits up.

But if you are working class, you may not have a car, which means the (in)Famous British Rail. Cue delays, ratty kids, mad dash across Brum New Street with five people's luggage, a buggy, and a very hot and wound up 4 year old.

So you get there and you're knackered already, and you feel you have to make the most of it because it's the only holiday you're going to get this year. If it rains, you're a bit stuffed, because you don't have a car so will get wet.

Can anyone say that there is an equal amount of strain on both families' patience? And when patience is very strained, the parenting decisions we make may not be the best.

I'm not saying that middle class parents don't have stresses, of course they do, but it all holds a bit more weight when you are on the bones of your arse already.

well we didn't have a pot to piss in growing up but we all turned out fabulous

I predict this turns into another class row in by about 9.30am