who is Gina Ford??!!??

[fairy]

I'm not being dim I can assure you!

But who is Gina Ford? It seems that almost every other thread on here mentions her, so please could someone explain all to me!

Many thanks!

SueW - DH and my in-laws are Dutch and we have lots of friends with babies there - I can assure you that you paint a rosey picture of NL !! In theory it's like that but in practice it isn't as good !

Blimey Bloss, I hope I am half as coherent and lucid as you after the birth of Number Two. Very interested to hear how you were getting on as it is looking increasingly likely that I will have c-section as unborn is still breech.
Anyhow, great debate about routines v baby-led parenting. Personally, I think there will always be a split on this as it is the parent who decides what approach they will follow and as we are all different and have such varying lifestyles, then it surely follows that we will determine different ways of parenting.
However, it is when misconceptions of other peoples methods become widespread that problems occur.
Having stumbled around myself between GF & baby led parenting, I am amazed that there are people out there who think that following GF means letting your baby cry. I am also amazed when people think that people follow controlled crying because they want to watch their favourite TV programme. In my experience (which is of course limited), parents only usually try routines and cc when a baby does not appear to be very settled or "happy" left to its own devices.
Also, babies themselves are very different, some settle almost without a murmur very early on into a routine - by themselves or with encouragement from a parent. Others, for whatever reason, seem determined to have a more random pattern to feeding, sleeping etc.
I would also be interested to know how those parents following the continuum concept or baby-led parenting cope with two or more children. Surely, baby two, three, four etc, is very unfortunately not going to get the immediate response that baby one might get.
Not a very coherent post, just my own thoughts.

How come whenever anyone criticises GF they always pick up on the controlled crying that she devotes about 3 pages to out of the entire book?

Before I became a mum or even went on this site I had no idea of the vast range of baby books out there. If anyone cares to take the time to read my last post on this thread, it states there how and why I took to GF. Luckily my dd fitted in the routines very well, the afternoon nap suited her perfectly and the most we left her crying for at night was 10 minutes.

I do believe that babies do have to be taught at some stage to get themselves off to sleep. I know of many parents, including some of my own family, who still put their 8 year olds in bed with them in order to get a good nights sleep and who sometimes have to be with their child until they go to sleep. This is exhausting for the parent, and if mummy is tired and exhausted, she will not be able to play or stimulate the baby as much and so the baby suffers. As Lizzer has said, a happy baby makes a happy mummy and vice versa.

I am sure all these baby books all claim to make your baby happy, and so who cares if you follow GF, CG or do it your own way? If it works for you and you and your baby is happy then that's fine! Don't condemn others for using a different method that's all.

And if, as Serena says, every baby's cry is serious, we would be up all night every night with our dd as she used to have nightmares two or three times a night. We used to go to her and after a couple of minutes she would fall asleep. But we found that the more we did this, the more often she would wake up crying. So when we stopped going to her, she would cry for about ten minutes then stop. We would creep in just to make sure she was ok when we thought she was asleep, and she inevitably was. After a couple of nights she stopped waking up at all and all three of us now have mainly unbroken nights. Happy baby and happy parents!

I'm sure you all make great mothers no matter what method you use. But I also have a suspicion that Serena is a hoax, sorry but it's just a feeling I get. Whenever anyone posts anything slightly controversial on a topical subject now I get suspicious. Sorry if you aren't Serena, but we have had this problem before and it caused a lot of upset. Please be careful with your words.

Sorry Serena, you are not a hoax. I do apologise. It's just that we have had a lot of them lately posting under new nicknames.

Bugsy, on the Continuum Concept site they say the idea is that you keep your baby with you all the time and then once he/she gets mobile they naturally want to 'leave the nest', as it were. As most babies start being mobile by about 9mths it's unlikely that you would have two to deal with at the same time, unless you had twins.

I think it would be pretty difficult to totally CC in our society, but I know there are people who 'wear' their babies in slings all the time, so I guess they are approximating the theory as closely as they can.

The site has some interesting theories, such as 'disipation of energy' in babies and so on. It's worth a look just for something different.

Thanks SueDonim, I will have a look and learn a bit more about it.

I have come in quite late on this. However, I do what I do, however I do it, with my child's best interests at heart, whom I adore with all of my heart. Does it really matter which TYPE of parent each and every one of us is.

Are we to be split into two groups with - those who are GF mothers, with children that should be have peoples pity and sorrow. Or those that are facilitator mothers? Everyone, of course is entitled to their opinions, that is the essence of mumsnet, BUT PLEASE save your pity for the children who are abused and left in rubbish bins not my baby.

I will go on to say that I could not have been more near the edge of sanity than the early days of my baby's life, when I had no more than 3 hours in 24 for weeks, breastfeeding hourly. And if it makes me a mother who has read the Contented Litlle Baby Book or the lazy mothers book then so be it, and NO I was not niave to think that my bubba was going to wear trendy clothes and be my latest fashion attatchment like a new pair of boots. I was so close to the edge of doing some sort of damage to either of us, that I am glad that I found another way. The whole point is not that your expert is better informed and kinder than mine - its we all get through it and enjoy it and them.
Must go the clock is approaching 1700 hours and the oven is hot hot ready for tea sharpish.

Sorry- just re read my last post and forgot to address it - Serena oops

I do wonder how Serena does it ???? When do you put your baby to bed or should I say in your bed? How do you know he is tired ???? How do you know when he is hungry ? when does he eat ??? I ask these questions as you seem to assume we can't think for ourselves !

I have a clock in my house which goes BONG at 7 AM... we must ALL be up and then it goes BONG again at 9AM and baby MUST be in bed.
I will not answer the phone if someone calls at 9 AM as I will be too busy putting baby to sleep and I only talk to my child at very specific time of the day. The same goes for cuddles... only between 1015 and 1020 - everyday.
GIVE ME A BREAK...

As lots of people have said... it does often appear (not you Lizzer or SueDonim) that the antiGF are FAR more dogmatic or fascist about their own ideology then the rest of the planet !

Rant over !

That's it, I've been trying not to rise to the bait on this one but I think 'facist' is just a push too far, can we please just give this one a break. I am sick of the fact that so many discussions on this site seem to be divided according to where we all stand on Gina b*y Ford. I would like my approach to parenting to be defined by rather more than which, if any, books I may have read along the way. Pupuce, if you do train as a Doula people who employ you will be looking for an open mind and your continually disparaging views on non-GF followers don't give that impression.

Sorry Pupuce, but thanks to you, I now have a mental picture in my head of GF, dressed in animal skins, whacking a gong - Rank Films presents...Carry On Contented Little Baby.
Anyone else find it intriguing that neither GF nor Jean Liedloff (Continuum Concept) had children of their own?

Emmaggee... then you haven't read most of my posts because while I found GF helpful for my 2 kids, I have alway said that it was a personal choice and I don't think (I know even) that it wouldn't work for some. I will only support mums who use GF if they wish support in that sense (see what I wrote to Whigers on other discussion)... otherwise I am very happy to support them with what feels best to them - not all my friends use GF and they still talk to me .
My ante natal class teacher was very anti GF and she would not discuss bf with me because of it so when I asked for her advice she wasn't prepare to discuss it !.... she is also a doula ! I don't think I am that stubborn in comparisson.
My post earlier today was tongue and cheek ! I think Marina got it... trying a bit of humour to highlight the fact that lot's of us GF or no GF can think for ourselves and don't need to be told by Serena : I think the tide will turn and these routines and smug injunctions from the likes of the apalling Christopher Green will seem as cruel and unnatural as corporal punishment.
I think that's showing very little understanding and experience for what a lot us do.
And

Emmagee, you also need to realise that I, and others like Bloss, carry the GF torch for quite a few women (at the Mumsnet pre-christmas lunch) one mum came to me and thanked me for it, saying that she didn't want her nickname associated with some of these attacks but she was greatful that I "defended" her choice... We do this on Mumsnet because we are anonymous. Some of the things we share, we don't even share with our spouses or friends. So I would keep some of my opinions to myself which is not what some NCT bf counsellor do on GF -and very publicly - as reported today by another mumsnet mum.
The other important point I'd like to make... up to VERY recently there had not been anymore strong GF debates because Lill, SueDonim, Lizzer, etc and all been very civil about the debates. They shared their views, she shared ours. I think it's fair to say there isn't such a great divide. With all the women named above I have other things in common.
It's when Serena started posting very aggressively (after we had just been through the Sar71 and Helen1969 incidents) that some of us doubted the genuine identity of Serena.... And felt the need to defend our choices. I don't think anyone who uses routines has been posting anything nearly as aggressive to women who don't believe in routines about their choice!

I am sorry you are questioning my behaviour and insinuating that I wouldn't make a good doula... I am actually quite sad that is the opinion you have of me. (I know you didn't say it as such but that's how it came across).

Pupuce, mostly I was questioning your use of the word Facist in the context of parenting.

As for having an opinion of you, I am aware that most of what I think of you is based on the fact that you are pro GF and I'm not, and that's kind of what I was saying when I said I was sick of this site being divided along those terms.

Thanks for explaining Emmagee. The word fascit has unfortunately been used quite a bit on this site... I certainly am not the first and that doesn't justify it.

Well you might be interested to know that I have other interests in my life besides routines
I had 2 home births, I am very into organic and (very) healthy eating (against sugar and microwave).

But please don't fall into the trap.... because I and others use routines doesn't mean that we have no other potential subject of agreements with you. We probably do !

I did a quick search on the site with the word fascist... look what I found :
By Jolly on Monday, 24 September, 2001 8:53:25 AM
"You're right Emmagee, the language is quite fascistic and the strictness of the routine is quite mad... " (this is referring to GF)

I think Pupuce's graciousness in response to what looked very much like a personal attack is just one of her many fine traits which shine through her posts which would be an excellent quality in a doula.

Jasper, Pupuce, it wasn't a personal attack. Good luck training to be a doula, call me a coward but I think I'll bow out again now.

Emmagee, misunderstanding resolved
Bow back in again sooon!

Oh heck! We all love our kids to bits don't we? So what's the problem? I agree there shouldn't be such a divide between pro-GF mums and anti-GF mums. We all have our own ways of coping with our little ones. Although I don't think it was very nice of Serena to imply that anyone who follows Christopher Green are 'cruel and unnatural'. I've read his book and I don't see anything in there that could be interpreted in this way. Maybe I've misunderstood you Serena?

And can someone please tell stupid ol' me what a doula is? I know I should know, but I don't!

The best way to find out is to go to
www.doula.org.uk

But in a few words it's a (usually) mother who will give practical and emotional support to a pregnant mother. She will be at the birth and some doulas also do post natal work, where they go to the mother's home for so many hours to give all kinds of support (from cleaning the house to taking care of the newborn whilst mum sleep or bathing the older children, etc).
The pre-natal doulas are (IMO) very useful for mothers who are anxious or concerned about labour and pregnancy. Sometimes they replace a partner but not always. They will be in the delivery room all the time (whilst midwives will come and go).
Hope that answers your question.
P.S. They are quite common in other countries - incl. US.

I wish I had known that during my pregnancy! I felt that my notes where not read at all, it was useless making a birth plan! The midwives were determined to get some drugs down me, I didn't want anything at all but they told me I might be in labour for 5 hours or more, they scared me into saying 'yes'. They offered me pethidine, which they should never have done as, if they had read my notes, they would have known that I suffered from mental illness during my pregnancy and pethidine could have sent me over the edge. Luckily my dh was adament that I was not taking it, but they persuaded me to have an epidural. I regret it now as I would have liked to have had a natural labour, but they were so bloody pushy! They just wanted as little fuss as possible, it made it easier for them. They were hardly in the room with me anyway!

Sorry, rant over. I just wish I could have had a doula!

We all learn from our labours.... my first also was different from what I had planned... so next time (if you have another one) things will be different as I am sure you would tackle things differently and you could get a doula. They're not that expensive anyway !

Quick question: if you had known about doulas, would you have wanted a doula BEFORE you had your baby (so before you knew the struggle you ended up facing)?

I let them push me around in my first labour a bit - had to dig my heels in to stick to my guns, to mix my metaphors. Second I was more cynical, and I knew when I was being pushed around. Third one I had at home - no one was gonna mess with me no mo' ; )

I am fine about other people having as many drugs as they want, and they can be induced, sectioned, whatever....doesn't bother me. I don't think there is a 'better' way to give birth, except if your wishes are ignored, people bullshit you, or belittle you, or leave you lonely and frightened.

Not sure about that one Pupuce. I had so many people telling me how labour was for them and what to expect. At the end of the day no-one can prepare you adequately for what you have to go through. Although it would have been nice for someone to have been there to say things like "This is normal" etc. You get so laden with advice before the birth that a lot of it tends to go over your head.