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who is Gina Ford??!!??

126 replies

fairy · 04/02/2002 20:39

I'm not being dim I can assure you!

But who is Gina Ford? It seems that almost every other thread on here mentions her, so please could someone explain all to me!

Many thanks!

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
MalmoMum · 02/03/2002 23:46

Serena. Welcome to the board!

MalmoMum · 02/03/2002 23:53

Serena. You are a very welcome addition to mumsnet. Did you find the site via the Sunday Times or elsewhere? It's great to see a newcomer be able to sweep to the heart of so many things.

My husband gets so annoyed when the term 'Troll' is not used correctly.

Lizzer · 03/03/2002 12:57

I'm running and hiding! Why do I always end up starting these rows off - I am sorry and not because I'm scared of the GF people, Serena, they really aren't a nasty bunch but I think the reason I (and I can't speak for Joe1 but I hope she'll agree) find the need to express my feelings in such a way is because its a really big thing to do to someone, as Bloss has said, to basically accuse them of neglecting their child's needs. This is not to say I don't agree with everything you are saying Serena because I think you've echoed all my feelings about the subject.If you trawl the board you'll definitely hear how forthright I have been on GF in the past and 'agreeing to disagree' is about the best any of us can do (in particular me, Bloss and Pupuce). Having spoke to Pupuce face to face about it we both agreed that as long as everyone has the facts on the book they can make their own mind up about it. I have learnt that the book DOES NOT make anyone a 'bad' parent and for certain people it probably DOES help them with the situation of raising a child. If this is the case then no harm done. It would however be really interesting to see a group of GF-ers and attachment-ers and follow the results of the differing child rearing ideas right into teens and adults. Any TV producers out there looking for ideas for fly on the wall docs??!! I'll be the executive producer if you like...

Bloss - I feel bad now, I should've avoided it - please give A a big hug from me and say Lizzer's sorry for stressing her mummy out

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Melly · 03/03/2002 14:09

Well said Lizzer, I think you suggest a very balanced and sensible approach.
You're suggestion about a documentary...that's an excellent idea, I am sure the viewing figures would go through the roof, because let's face it, child rearing is a highly emotive subject. If you need anyone in your production team........

emmagee · 03/03/2002 18:58

Serena, I loved your comments about having a life. I remember when our daughter (now 3) was 8 months old and we were going on holiday to Mallorca. Whilst standing in the queue at the check-in we overheard the woman in front say to her partner 'I don't know why people take their babies on holiday, it's not like they'll remember it or anything!'.

I had to be restrained from explaining my position, to put it mildly!

manna · 03/03/2002 19:04

I've often laughed with dh about the need for gf retirement homes where all gf babies can go and grow old happily - reverting to their '7th age' of man i.e. what they were like as babies, i.e. run on a strict routine!!

I do think that sernea's coming on a bit strong. I can't emphasise enough that gf is not into cc or ignoring your childs needs. I do agree with you serena about childrens cries being as serious as they sound. I now know the difference with my ds's. Some can be ignored (i.e. 4.30am, quick sleepy howl followed by resettling himself) others need immediate attention, even if it is just the 'it's 6.45pm and I'm tired and grumpy - give me a cuddle mum' one, not a ill / in pain / frightened one. Not sure about the idea of babies taking on the responsibility of making you come back to them by smiling, though. My 15 week ds has all my attention all the time, except when he's asleep. I leave him under his play gym to explore things and touch, roll etc., but sit within view of him so I can join in with him if he starts to sound bored. I've been doing gf since 3 weeks, and what it means to me is that I am confident he is well fed and rested, and I can plan his and my days around his meals and sleeps, that's all. The sleeping through the night is a bonus, but to both of us, I feel. He's certainly alot chirpier when he wakes up after an unbroken night than after a wakeful one. I don't do anything my baby can't be 'present for or participate in' except eat dinner at night, sleep, go to the loo (although a baby bjorn has often accomplished this if I'm desperate and just in from the park!)and try and russle up enough energy to make love with my dh!

Final word - I have spoken to gf on numerous occasions and find her a humerous, sensible woman. She expressed interest in the welfare of my particular ds, tried to adapt the routines to suit him, and was refreshingly unrigid in her attitude to what suited and didn't suit him. I do think that many of the problems people have with her book lie in her style of writing, which may lack a certain finesse, shall we say. Like some of us on here!!!

manna · 03/03/2002 19:08

Oh yes, serena, please don't feel sorry for my baby. Unless I'm completely mistaken, he seems extremely happy, a fact commented on by everyone who meets him.

florenceuk · 03/03/2002 22:24

As somebody whose baby cried regardless of whether Mum was there, being cuddled or patted, but was clearly soothed by sucking or rhythmic rocking motions, I am not convinced by the theory that they cry because they feel abandoned. If only the key to preventing crying at night was as simple as just being there! In studies of colicky babies, I think sucking and rhythmic motion came out as two of the few surefire ways of stopping crying. You may choose to provide these in person eg through nursing or walking your baby round, but it's not the presence of the parent per se that's necessary. And even Penelope Lynch acknowledges the need for (post-colic) babies to learn self-soothing methods eventually.

I'm also not sure what Serena is trying to say re baby smiling, cooing etc - clearly this behaviour is a clever evolutionary response designed to make us (the parents) bond with the baby and look after it - and essential given how helpless a baby is. It's not a question of forcing the baby to smile but what is normal behaviour for babies.

SueDonim · 03/03/2002 22:30

Your comment on the 7th age of man might be closer to the truth than you imagined, Manna! My FIL had a forty year career in the RAF. He developed dementia in his 70's and eventually went into a home. Much to our surprise, he settled in at once, apparently because everything was done to a routine, just as he'd been used to, for those forty years in the RAF.

Bee100 · 03/03/2002 22:32

Joining in the discussion a bit late, and going off on a bit of a tangent here, but a couple of Serena's comments hit home with me as my instinct is that cc feels wrong (although I am not saying it IS wrong, just that it feels wrong to me)and so went to Amazon to look at the book that she'd suggested reading which led me to find a whole load of reviews about books on attachment parenting, which made me realise that without knowing what it was called, this is what I've been doing. Wanted to thank Serena for giving it a name for me and also have ordered a load of books that will hopefully make me happier about the way I am choosing to do things. I have felt really isolated and freaky when reading a lot of the other baby books as routines and cc and not feeding on demand just don't feel right for me, but these books present it as the only way to bring up a happy & healthy child - what a relief to find that there are books out there that present another way that feels much more in tune with me! (this is not meant to offend any GF fans as if this feels right to you, then I think it is brilliant).

SueDonim · 03/03/2002 22:57

I found this article from the Guardian when I was browsing, which seems to sum up a lot of the current methods of babycare. Deborah Jackson's new book sounds very good!

Sue
-----

"Bringing up baby

Feeding on demand and co-sleeping are out. Timed feeds and controlled crying are in. Is this the end of liberal parenting, asks Kate Worsley

Wednesday February 27, 2002
The Guardian

Quite unintentionally, old neighbours Rachel Scott and Léonie Ainapore have found themselves conducting a little social experiment with their children. When they had their first babies, in 1999, they automatically adopted the best liberal, child-centred practice: breast-feeding on demand (sorry, "request", babyslings, co-sleeping, the lot. While pregnant, Scott, now 36, had been enthralled by Deborah Jackson's paean to co-sleeping, Three in a Bed; Ainapore, 32, who had never so much as changed a nappy, assumed that maternal instinct would kick in. But demand-feeding round the clock did nothing to soothe Ainapore's baby's colic, while Scott's son was still waking twice nightly after a year. As they found their lives descending into chaos, they began to feel badly let down by a philosophy which they had been told by everyone - from midwives to magazines - was the best, indeed the only, way to be a parent.
"You're constantly being told about mothers who wear their babies and sleep with them," says Ainapore, "and I thought if I just loved and nurtured him, and slept with him, he would be OK. But I was constantly at his beck and call, and he wasn't contented - I was exhausted and felt a failure."

No one mentioned the possibility of establishing a routine. "There were just these goals - your baby will be sleeping through by four months - that we never seemed to make."

So it is that with their second babies, born a few months ago, both women have put them on a rigorous schedule of timed sleeps and feeds from their earliest weeks; they are kept awake as much as possible during the day, and left to settle themselves at night.

It may have taken a generation, but every official bit of advice given to new parents toes the child-centred line. When, after three sleepless nights in hospital, Ainapore wanted the midwives to take her baby for a couple of hours so she could rest, she was told in an astonished tone: "'No, we prefer our mothers to bond with the babies.'"

The advances in child psychology of the 1960s and 70s, which revealed the importance of early stimuli and intimacy, combined with feminism to inspire such gurus as Miriam Stoppard, Penelope Leach and Sheila Kitzinger in the idea that birthing practice and babycare needed to be liberated from a medical system still preoccupied with sanitation, routine, hierarchy and efficiency. But now that their ideas are firmly established in the mainstream, and hospitals no longer whisk newborns off to the nursery or enforce five-hourly bottle feeds, many new parents aren't finding their job any easier or more rewarding.

More recently, there has been something of a rebellion - and some serious moaning about the martyrdom of modern motherhood - from Rachel Cusk, Kate Figes and Kate Mosse, et al, as well as terrifying TV programmes on "damage limitation" methods, from toddler-taming to controlled crying. And where the state (in the form of nurses, midwives and health visitors) has failed, nanny beckons, with her sweet strictures and reassuring rules. Celebrity-endorsed maternity nurses such as Tracy Hogg (author of Secrets of the Baby Whisperer) and Gina Ford are in enormous demand.

"The one, and perhaps the only, good thing about Ford," explains Scott, "is that she gives you a pre-emptive concrete plan, which takes into account how one element of the day affects another. It puts you in control, and shifts the whole power relationship."

Despite blanket condemnation from the established experts for its practical heresies and hectoring tone, Ford's Contented Little Baby Book has been a huge word-of-mouth success, selling over 200,000 copies and spawning its own alternative support groups. A new edition is out this month, together with an additional step-by-step tome on how to wean later in the year. Also out in June, psychologist Dorothy Einon's Golden Rules of Parenting (there are 100, apparently) promises to "do for child rearing what Ford did for the world of babies".

Are we simply seeing a backlash against liberal parenting, and were the traditionalists right all along? (Make baby eat her greens and put her to cry at the bottom of the garden.) Or is the break-up of the consensus a sign of renewed debate, potentially offering a "third way" to parents?

On a purely practical level, the determined non-authoritarianism of liberal parenting seems to have left a vacuum of information which foundering parents simply can't tolerate. Confronted with small unhappy babies, Scott and Ainapore found the advice of the babycare books, with their mights, coulds and maybes, impossibly vague. In the drive to emphasise the individuality of each child, it seems some universal physical basics have not been explained to mothers.

"It's very strange that we're not told babies' physical requirements," says 32-year-old new mum Helen Staniland, who put her daughter Daisy on Ford's routine at two weeks old after enduring 10-hour feeds. Ford's book is the only place she has seen concrete information on the amount of sleep a baby needs a day and how much milk its stomach can hold: "Even on the baby milk carton, it says demand-feeding is best. I think it's just a ploy to sell more milk."

There's also a sense that the balance of power has swung too far in the child's favour. "I wouldn't have a relationship with an adult which was just one way," believes new dad and Gina-fan Mike Torrance, 38, "so how can it be healthy for the demands of a little baby to rule you as an adult?"

The case for the child-centred approach has perhaps been overstated to get the message across. In a country where over 60% of mothers give up breastfeeding after six weeks, it is mercilessly talked up to novice parents. One midwife told Staniland: "Your routine sounds good, but we have to say 'demand-feeding' and we have to say 'breastfeeding'."

"The official advice now is that babies get into their own routine," explains Ford, who sees her role as "picking up the pieces". "Well, some babies do, but a great many don't. It's also a political thing: there's not the money to support mothers properly, so they're told to go home and use their natural instincts. Midwives are so overworked they don't have time to outline a more detailed approach.

"I think the tide has turned because the majority of babies are not happy on demand-feeding and mothers can't cope. Imagine being up four times a night with a one-year-old and then being made to feel a bad mother because you can't cope."

Heather Neil, a tutor for the National Childbirth Trust, feels the backlash is due to people still being misinformed about central liberal tenets such as demand-feeding. "For instance, Ford doesn't realise that breastfeeding is a relationship between a mother and her baby, not just a way to get milk into it," she says. "I understand that some people are desperate to get their nights back, but the price you pay for following her methods is listening to your baby cry. Of course, you can train babies. If their needs are not met, they will stop asking."

Backlash is too simple a term for what's happening, believes Dorothy Einon, a senior lecturer in psychology at University College London. Another wave of advances in psychology, this time in the fields of evolution and learning, is refining our ideas about what happens when you let a child cry.

"A lot of what's going on now is underpinned by basic learning principles," she say. "For instance, children won't put themselves to sleep if they don't learn to. I do think the tendency to go back to Truby King-style feeding programmes will swing back again because it simply doesn't work with some children. It worked when we were giving children bottles of con densed milk, but not with breastfeeding. I don't overlap completely with Ford, but we share the basic principle of reward. If you reward a child, it will respond - even if you, or it, is unaware of what you're doing."

A shift in attitudes, which she dates from the mid-80s, has also played its part. "Society as a whole became more controlling, and the 60s children started having their own children, who turned out to be much more conventional." The rise of the dual-income family, where mothers go back to work a few months after birth, has also necessarily made parents more pragmatic - "whereas the 60s earth mother approach was what baby wants, you give. There's also a realisation that you're raising a child for the world out there and they have to learn to share, too."

Sheila Kitzinger, whose new book Birth Your Way sits firmly in the liberal tradition, points the finger at "a so-called 'post-feminist' self-centredness which says you've got a right to your own life and don't let your kids get any power over you". She recognises a demand for instruction: "Publishers commission 'how-to' books and say that women want clear, numbered instructions these days. They're looking for a kind of Delia Smith of child-rearing. I find that daunting - because I don't think life is like that."

What we're seeing, according to Jackson, is "not so much a backlash as an enormous growth in awareness that there are different ways to do things. People are still buying Three in a Bed in enormous numbers, so they're not all doing Gina Ford. It's a very exciting time because there are more voices on the babycare shelves than there have ever been before."

Baby Wisdom, her new book on global approaches to the first year of parenting, also published this month, draws on the new field of ethnopaediatrics opening up in the US. This looks at anthropology and the history of childrearing and will, she hopes, replace the authoritarian, clinical model of childrearing advice.

The way to truly empower parents is to give them the full range of information, "otherwise you end up following the book, not the baby", says Jackson. Her comparative approach is to be tolerant: "Because we're not all going to make the same choices. In order to get back to the idea of community, in which childrearing is a neighbourhood watch activity, we've got to reach the point of tolerance, because we're just not going to have community with consensus any more."

· The New Contented Little Baby Book, by Gina Ford (Vermillion, £9.99); The Contented Little Baby Book of Weaning (Vermillion, £9.99, June); Birth Your Way, by Sheila Kitzinger (Dorling Kindersley, £9.99); Baby Wisdom, by Deborah Jackson (Hodder, £14.99); The Golden Rules of Parenting, by Dorothy Einon (Vermillion, £6.99)"

bloss · 04/03/2002 02:31

Message withdrawn

jasper · 04/03/2002 05:21

Suedonnim, thanks for that, it was a very interesting article.
Bloss, I continue to be very impressed st your recovery. You are obviously mentally alert. How are things physically?

bloss · 04/03/2002 08:28

Message withdrawn

bloss · 04/03/2002 08:29

Message withdrawn

Pupuce · 04/03/2002 08:53

Bloss- Didn't I tell you that your second baby would be easier ???
For the wond thing... have you considered an osteopath ? I've not done it myself because I didn't have these porbles with my 2 but friends who had.... swear by it. I understand 1 visit is enough !
How's your son coping ?

Lizzer · 04/03/2002 12:18

Suedonim, thanks for that article - it was v interesting and I think very balanced. I still will always feel that baby's do not know they have been brought into this century and therefore we should be working on the principles of instinct which is basically AP. But then when we were cave dwellers we did not have mortgage payments to meet!

Bee100 I agree with your sentiments entirely, I had never heard of AP til finding this site and it was mentioned to me by Eulalia - it IS great to find that what you thought was just 'winging it' actually has a term. In this world we always feel better if we use/do/have something with a name attached to it, suddenly it becomes acceptable and 'normal', a sad fact but true....

Bloss- are you the first woman ever to grow brain cells rather than lose them after having a baby?! Much amazement at your coherent and eloquent syntax, perhaps an as yet unknown side effect of GF's routine??!

Joe1 · 04/03/2002 12:28

Thanks Bloss didnt think you would be angry, just taking the soft approach after all the hassle we have had on the site lately. Yeah your right the little devil showed gf the way with a natural baby routine I know pretty much when he needs his sleep, though sometimes he will disagree and not sleep at all. I think sometimes its not the style of parenting, as Im pretty much ap, but the word 'routine' that gets the debate going. Im glad everything is going ok for you and dd is giving you an easier time than your ds did. I too would be interested at how your ds is coping as I will have 2 in September.
Serena, I would never apologise for my views but prefer not to upset people in the process.

SueDonim · 04/03/2002 14:06

Lizzer, I like AP, too, and have done for more than 25 years, although I only heard the term a few years ago, as well!

'The Continuum Concept' is also fascinating and reflects my thoughts. Click HERE for more. If you click on 'The Principles' item and then the article entitled 'Who's in Control? The unhappy consequences of being child-centred' you'll find an item about modern Stone Age Indians in S America - not so far removed from the cave man idea.

Pupuce · 04/03/2002 15:53

Thanks SueDonim.... I was actually trying to find something on this topic as I have heard about it before.

There are quite a few things that I do in my life which some would describe as AP and I don't think GF's advice goes against AP but that's another debate.
This website however is fascinating by the language it uses... it makes everything sounds a bit black and white - you are either for or against ! Which I think a lot of parents (and you as well I think SueDonim) are not about. Looking through their "checklist", my children have some of the "cc" experiences they refer to and some things are not so "cc".
I do think the site (not saying everyone who is for CC is like this) sounds very "we're right and the rest is a bunch of egoistical parents who only care about their own needs, etc"

And just out of curiosity .... how do you achieve this : "having caregivers immediately respond to his signals (squirming, crying, etc.), without judgment, displeasure, or invalidation of his needs, yet showing no undue concern nor making him the constant center of attention; "
Maybe it's just me but if you immediately respond to a baby's signal you are making it the center of attention ! And I am by no mean what so ever advocating to let them cry either. Just curious !

My SIL (who swears by GF) has just been told by several people that she should let her baby live a bit - she had called me to ask my point of view on this ! She is (and she won't deny this) constantly at his side. And she can do all of this while doing the routine. Her son mainly cries when he wants a toy or if she gets a glass of water and is out of view for 30 seconds.

Her son doesn't cry when he goes to bed or doesn't cry for food but can't stand when she leaves the room or his sight, so she doesn't... so she has in my view done a 50:50 routine/CC

Or maybe I am not getting it ???

serena · 04/03/2002 22:56

Bloss, I'm surprised at your comment that I launched straight in with out familiarity with any of you. Is this a clique?

In response to your first point, your assumptions are fostered by someone outside the baby's immediate circle, so yes, I think you're handing over the central role of expert to someone else. "Seems happy" is a phrase used at least twice on this thread by proponents of GF methods, not my phrase.

You're right that the interpretation of a childs behaviour is subjective. But I repeat its GF who backs up your assumptions. Mine are based on an emotional response. No, before I get shot down for that, I don't think that makes me a better person.

Moving on to point 4 , sleep deprivation is apalling. But why can't we sleep when our babies sleep, or even while they feed? I think its because we aspire to seem unaffected by the experience of motherhood, because of a mistaken interpretation of feminism that femaleness is demeaning "I'm just a mum" syndrome.

In a society as close to ours as Holland, mothers are provided with support as a matter of course by the health service. I got photocopies of Toddler Taming and counselling. Does that combination speak volumes to anyone else?

Point 5 I'd have to reiterate that these points are subjective. But on the idea that I'm attributing malign intent to babies - I have to defend myself. The idea is that this is an evolutionary emergency measure, designed to help babies to be attractive to other people if their carers can't be with them or are dead.

I'd like to know what you think about this - most people have a strong need to be in line with the rest of society. If you perceive that society is doing GF,(as that Guardian article strongly implied) then instinct tells you to do that. My perception (from reading the guardian) while pregnant 5 years ago was that healthcare advice was conflicting and unhelpful to say the least and I went it alone, anxious to preserve my instincts, and fearing they would be fragile. I didn't have the resources to look harder for a source of support than you've guessed it, a battered copy of Three In A Bed by Deborah Jackson.

  1. On object permanence, I don't have the time to argue the point again just now, but would love to hear more of you thoughts on the matter.

Bee100 I'm glad you got what you needed.

Would someone please tell me where I can find all these other attackers of GF.?

jasper · 05/03/2002 01:17

Serena I am interested in one of your points about people having a strong need to be in line with society. ( I will have to think about that but I am sure there is a lot of truth in it)
You go on to say "if you perceive that society is doing GF..." My experience is that those doing GF are the ones who are swimming against the tide! I cannot imagine anyone following GF because they think it is what everyone else is doing.
Disclaimer : this is not a pro or anti GF posting
You mention in Holland mothers are provided with support by the health authorities. I infer from this you were not, and am sorry this was your experience. I had the most fantastic support from the health authorities; it probably depends a lot on where you live and even possibly the interaction of your personality with that of your health visitor.That is what sounds so appealing about the doula concept. Presumeably you find a doula whom you like and hit it off with and then employ them.

SueDonim · 05/03/2002 01:45

I agree Pupuce, many parents use a mix of parenting ideas. I'm not promoting CC; all I know about it is what I've read on the internet. I'm just saying that the general ethos strikes a chord with me. (Mind you, most of my parenting has been of the "Seat of My Pants" school of thought and I firmly believe my children are growing up in spite of, and not because of, me.)

Seriously, I see where you're coming from about your SIL doing a 50:50 GF/CC but I imagine the CC'ers would say that she isn't using the Continuum Concept because the routines mean the CC bit isn't continuous.

You mention the part about "having caregivers immediately respond to his signals (squirming, crying, etc.), without judgment, displeasure, or invalidation of his needs, yet showing no undue concern nor making him the constant center of attention; " I think GF uses this method herself when she suggests sometimes giving a minimum of attention, eg by not talking or playing with your baby when nappy changing or feeding at night, so it is a feasible idea, I think. (Of course, a small baby has no concept of separate identities anyway, to begin with. They are quite old before they begin to understand that you and he/she are different entities, and that is when they go through the phase of crying when you are out of sight.)

I didn't get the same impression as you about the site itself, that it was 'We're-right-and-you're-wrong' although I haven't read all of it. Instead, I felt that Jean Liedloff was merely reporting something she had observed and stating how she had developed her ideas - akin to GF's road to writing her book, now I come to think of it!!!

SueDonim · 05/03/2002 01:51

Jasper, I'm so disappointed to see you here!
I didn't notice any earlier messages from you and had convinced myself you'd gone into labour - today's the day, isn't it?

SueW · 05/03/2002 09:00

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.