who is Gina Ford??!!??

[fairy]

I'm not being dim I can assure you!

But who is Gina Ford? It seems that almost every other thread on here mentions her, so please could someone explain all to me!

Many thanks!

I notice on Amazon.co.uk that there are 2 new Gina books coming out this year. First is the New Contented Little Baby Book in March 2002. Anybody know what this is about? The other is about weaning later in the year.

Has anyone read "The Secrets of the Baby Whisperer" by Tracy Hogg? I've heard it mentioned on another site. Apparently, it helps parents to interpret their baby's signals and plan their routines accordingly. I thought it sounded interesting.

A friend of mine who has just read that book and GF back to back said they are basically the same (same reasoning) but that GF sounds far more "rigid", Tracy Hogg is more diplomatic.
I saw Tracy Hogg on This morning a few months ago (yes while I was on Maternity leave) and she did say the same things as GF! I'd be interested to hear people's feedback (I might read it myself actually).
Both women have the same job : (British)maternity nurse. Tracy charges a 1000 US a day !

Yes, I have read 'Secrets of the baby whisperer', found it rather over the top (typically 'American' - no offence to any Americans reading this).

Basically it categorizes your child into one of four or five types - my problem was that my DS didn't fit any of these types!

Wouldn't personally recommend it.

The very best baby book I read was 'Life after Birth' it was very much more about how you change when you become a mother rather than with routines & advice but to me it made a huge amount of sense and treated the mother as a person in her own right rather than (although I realise this is very important) a 'baby caring machine'. Typically I can't remember the author but will find out and post later.

I wasn't working when I was pregnant so must have read every baby book available!!!

I am great fan of GF. Very, very sceptial at first but after six - eight weeks of no routine, suddenly after that when I decided to really give her routines a go, everything started to click into place. 7.5 months on and my dd is "a contented little baby" ....well most of the time! As someone has said earlier on this thread, sorry am being lazy and not scrolling up to find out who, I too felt like burning the book at first, I tried hiding it at the back of the shelf, but it was like GF was calling out and saying "Melly, come on you know it makes sense, just persevere and things will start click into place". I am a bit guilty of taking her routines exactly to the letter, but have had to learn to chill out a bit as dd goes to a childminder twice a week and obviously can't stick to the routine so well. I personally think the most important aspects of her routines especially once the baby is a bit older is sticking to the bedtime routine and making sure that get their milk/solids intake between 7 am - 7 pm. I must admit some nights about 5 pm I think oh christ here we go again, same old thing, tea, bit of a kick on the mat in the bathroom (dd you understand not me!), cuddles and play, bath, bottle and bed, but then 7 pm, dd happily in bed and my evening is free. DD went from 7 pm to 7 am from the age of 13 weeks, but what really, really, really annoys me with some people is when they say.....oh your sooo lucky to have such a good baby.......b......ks it is down to hard work and perseverance (IMO), especially when I listen to how their average day pans out. I do think it is a shame that GF didn't include a paragraph or so at the beginning of her book to say, these routines are hard, you may feel like they are too rigid etc etc, for me I think if I had read that it would have encouraged me to give them a go when dd was two weeks old rather than 8.

Anyway, signing off for tonight, I seem to have verbal diarrhoea, as some of you may have noticed, have been posting like mad woman most of evening, but would like to say that I think (after a few first reservations) that Mumsnet is brilliant and thanks to everyone that has posted back to me with help and advice over last few weeks.

TTFN - Melly.

Melly - very good point about other people saying 'aren't you lucky with your baby' - it annoys me too as, as you say, it is hard work and you do have to be very strict, especially with the evening routine (I agree with your sentiment about statting at 5 o'clock .....I'll be thinking of you tonight!) but now I actually speed it up so that DS is in bed by 6 - more time to get to the wine! It suits us that he wakes at 6.30 and has some time with Dad in the morning as he doesn't see him in the evening.

I am constantly amazed at other people's comments such as not putting their child to bed at a set time because he/she 'doesn't look tired' & then can't understand why they are up all night. Of course it's more fun to stay up and play - but not good for the mum!

or for the child...

Well done Pupuce for adding, well, what I personally would consider to be quite an important piece of info ie baby being happy too! (could you feel my hackles rising to talk of being v strict with your baby or what??!!)

Keep up the hard work and perseverance

Well I just want to make a quick comment. I didn't have GF for my first because she spent her first 14 weeks in hospital she was on a strict 4 hourly routine when she came home. Although she didn't sleep through for a long time, she was always able to settle herself and was a very easy baby. When number 2 came along I had read GF book 2 and I really found it useful. I didn't stick to the strictness but I did make sure we got a routine established quickly and GF gave me the confidence to do this. Not to feed on demand (I was BF) and to make things work for us all.

Lizzer I don't want to re-hash old arguments but in all fairness to all mums who use GF's book... they are all looking to have happy kids (even if they don't write it all the time). You need to have a happy mummy and a happy baby... an unhappy baby won't make a happy mummy

Our son has always been a 7 - 7 without any specific attempt at a routine of any description and I just think we are extraordinarily lucky. A friend of mine with 4 children swears that some children are naturally more susceptible to routine than others.

I have nothinbg whatsoever against Gina Ford but I just couldn't countenance planning my day around my baby's naps simply because we are out and about so much and also like to travel a lot and I can't see how we would manage to stick to the prescribed routine.

I'd never heard of GF until I read about her on this site but something scary is happening to me as I read about her.........................I've realised I would be a GF fan!!!!

I've read Secrets of the Baby Whisperer. The tone is designed for an American readership. It is like GF, but without the "rigidity". However, what others read as "rigid", I read as "specific"! In other words, I found it too general to be really helpful. My ds didn't really fit any of the types - although there was not much (some - to be fair) development of the types idea in terms of what to actually do with your "type" in specific circumstances.

IMHO, read the Baby Whisperer to get an alternative approach, but if you want a softly softly approach with a focus on routines, you would be better off modifying GF to suit baby and yourself.

I know, I know Pupuce, you are totally right, but you know it winds me up thinking about it!

I have to say Melly and Lindy that I'm not sure the point you were trying to make about having people say you have a 'good baby' (not happy with that term but I know people say it a lot) but you put the hard work and effort in to make her that way? I think I had a great baby probably not by your terms though (she was noisy, smiley, loud and unpredictable, never slept great,fed when she wanted and was swinging on my hips most of the time, happy little chimp!) and people used to say the same about her. People say that lots of times and probably mean it, but if you were offended that you weren't getting the praise you deserve for having shaped her into a routine then don't be - most people wouldn't have realised (or possibly believed -as I for one was shocked at the regime) you'd put all that "hard work and perseverance" into it at all

That's an interesting comment, Lizzer, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels uncomfortable with the phrase 'a good baby'. Defined by GF routines, I think my last would have been 'a bad baby' but I've never thought of her as such, although she sounds amazingly like your child! She has always elicited comments about her happiness, even her teachers say they rarely have such a smiley child in class. I also completely agree with Croppy about some children being more susceptible to routines.

I agree that the term 'good' and 'bad' baby is not at all useful or constructive, just as 'good' or'bad' mother is not at all helpful. I think the point I was trying to make, perhaps not very clearly, was that when other parents talk about sleeping habits (which does seem to be a major topic of conversation) they tend to use this expression if the child sleeps through the night -as mine has since 5 months - & therefore indicated that this means I am 'lucky'; when I therefore describe my strict bedtime routines they then go on to say, "well I couldn't do that .....for 101 different reasons" - which may well be genuine for their particular lifestyles.

I have to say that I could never follow the GF routines for the daytime - I found it very hard to get b/f established, plus we had numerous hospital appointments etc but the four main points I mentioned last night certainly worked the best.

Not really related to this thread but I appreciate the varied & valuable comments being contributed and would be grateful if some of you could look at my last posting on 'useless toys' thread and offer some advice - if that doesn't sound too cheeky for asking!

Thanks/

"Gina Ford's recommendations take a week or two to work." This statement could be expressed as "babies whose needs are not met take a week or two to stop asking".

I think babies cry at night because they do not know that you still exist when you are not with them (it is called "object permanence" if you're interested in psychology). They finally give up asking you to be with them, in despair.

It is hell to have if you expect your life to be the same after you have a baby. Normal life does not resume after a baby, having a baby is an irrevocable step, not a lifestyle choice.

I'm sorry if this is inflammatory, and no, I wouldn't say any of this face to face with pupuce
or any other gina ford parents. But I know a couple with a half a million pound mortgage, taken on since the woman got pregnant. She bemoans "having to" use Gina Ford practices, but never considers living in a cheaper part of town so they wouldn't have to make so much money (both are self employed so could pretty well control work hours.)
They could then fit in more with the baby. I feel heart broken for the baby.

I've always believed happy parents mean happy babies, but does forcing a tiny baby to cry itself to sleep alone , making a toddler go to sleep without cuddles make parents happy?

I think the tide will turn and these routines and smug injunctions from the likes of the apalling Christopher Green will seem as cruel and unnatural as corporal punishment.

Message withdrawn

Well said bloss - I was just writing a response to Serena when I gave up thinking "why bother" - she's resolutely anti any other style of parenting that its a total waste of time to even a) correct/point out how she is misinformed about GF, b) understand how she arrived at conclusion re: wealthy friends with huge mortgage.

Interesting that its the people who are anti-GF who are the most vociferous about how cruel it is blah blah. Gina Ford's routine worked for my baby but I would never push it onto other people - what works for me might not for others - its a choice & chaque un son gout! to each his own.

Bloss, I dont know I think this debate will always be going on whatever (please dont shout at me). I havnt read the book and probably wont. I dont like routines, like to do what I want when I want which includes taking ds to his toy library etc. Ds suits my lifestyle, he is happy, content and extremely great fun, I am also always told how good and happy he is by people I meet, some I see regularly have never heard him cry and he is 18 months now. He falls asleep pretty much the same times everyday out and about or at home, something he fell into himself. By reading the posts of GF followers you do come across as though this is the way (for you I might add, I dont see you forcing it on others) and you are very rigid about it. Dont you feel sometimes it has taken away the unpredictability of a baby? Also how does it effect your dh's. I know mine would be devestated if at a certain time every night ds was in bed and never got to see his dad in the evenings only at weekends.

Strange... Serena is new... already very controversial on all her 4 posts.... I think it's a hoax... won't rise to the bait.
Serena... if you are not a hoax : Sorry !

Bloss! How can you be so articulate so soon after giving birth? I am trully impressed.

You are so right that it is unheard of for parents who use GF style routines to claim it is THE ONLY way. But GF oponents so often vigorously criticise parenting styles other than their own.This has always struck me as very odd indeed, namely that those who extol a so called more tolerant style are so intolerant of others! ( I digress slightly here but I have found this to be true in life in general - "right on" types are so often very intolerant of people who do not subscribe to their "right -on" views! Not that I am saying non routine parents or anti GF parents are right on)

I used a "muddle along" technique (with mixed results, not sure I could write a book of recommendations ) with my two, hadn't heard of Gina Ford, so I am not speaking from a viewpoint of being in any particular "camp".
As for "smug injunctions from the appalling Christopher Green" , well that must be a different man from the sympathetic, clever and hilarious fellow who wrote Toddler Taming. He absolutely bends over backwards to qualify his advice . For example on cosleeping,
"Many philosophers extol the joys of a family sleeping together in one giant bed-bound commune and in fact I receive many rude letters if I dare suggest eviction....If you enjoy having children in bed with you all night, every night, that's your decision. If you are all happy, let them stay there until they are ready for high school as far as I am concerned."

Joe1, in answer to your question about how do dh's feel, that I would imagine varies greatly from family to family depending on what occupation your dh ha i.e what hours he works etc. Because my dh is in the services, periods of separation from both myself and dd are unavoidable, however he does not expect or wish me to change our dd's routine to enable him to spend more time with her to compensate for the times he has missed out on seeing her. My dh shows his appreciation to me for persevering with quite strict routines for our dd, by for example cooking dinner for us every night that he is at home. When I come downstairs at 7 pm, there is usually a G&T waiting for me, dinner is well under way and sometimes the bottles are washed and in the process of being sterilized. He then gives me a hug and thanks me for looking after our dd so beautifully. Before you all reach for your sick bowls......yes we have our arguments like any other couple, and I certainly have never demanded that he cook dinner for me etc, I think it is just his way of doing his bit (he isn't really a very modern dad!) I guess what I am trying to say here is that routines for our dd works for us, our dd is happy and content, we are both happy, but I certainly don't think our way of doing things is the only way.....each to their own, the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed on every issue.

Bloss, several responses - you accuse me of making assumptions. I feel that you are making assumptions that your baby is happy because it makes happy noises when you come to pick it up. It does this because it wants to encourage you to come back. It is taking on responsibility of being pleasant and sociable in the relationship. You say babies "seem" happier. Again, an assumption.

And I didn't assume you were happy - look at the second last sentence in my post.

I don't have a theory on object permanence - its a familiar concept in psychology. Why refrain from telling us your theories? Is there some unspoken taboo I'm not aware of that discussion shouldn't rise above a certain level?

I do think GF and C.Green have a lot in common, and I assert my right to lump them together as you have lumped together all other parents under "attachment parents". What a thing to be disparaged for though - attachment.

I'd like to ask, what do you define as "having a life?" Is it doing things that babies can't be present for or participate in?

Finally, I'm not aware of these myriad opponents of GF. Where are they?

Pena - I'm not friendly with the aforementioned couple with the huge mortgage - met them through work.

Maybe GF people don't express their disgust at other baby-led ways of parenting. It would sound a bit odd, to criticise someone for meeting their baby's needs. I know of several people who do exactly that, and they're all of my mother's generation, born in the thirties + forties. I think there was a punitive attitude to children inculcated by male doctors and so called childcare experts. This situation is returning. (The only expert on your child is you.)

I'd like to ask why Joe1 feels she has to be so apologetic about expressing her opinion if you GF people are all so reasonable.

I naturally don't think I'm intolerant. I don't even feel critical. I just feel sorry for the babies.

I think you should all read the Continuum Concept - Jean Liedloff. She says when a baby cries, it is precisely as serious as it sounds.

Pupuce, I'm interested to see you think I must be a hoaxer. No-one could possibly think like this nowadays.