I'm not even sure if I like Ds1 anymore......

[LadyTophamOfHattingford]

He absolutley drives me around the fuc*ing bend.

Every single day we have the same issue. Honestly, without fail he will come in to our romm and wake me up to ask a random question even though EVERY night I tell him not to wake me up.

Every day I have to nag him to pick his stuff up whther it's PJ's, clothes, books, games, everything. He plays with it, wear it (or whatever) and just leaves it there when he's finished.

Every night at dinner it's the same things we have to say to him. "Sit on the chair properly", "use your folk/knife properly", "stop messing about"...it goes on and on.

Every day he seems to jump on every opportuntity to wind the other 2 up. Takes stuff they are playing with claiming they weren't even though I know they are and might have put it down to put something else with it.

He never accepts the first answer he gets unliess of course it's yes. Honestly his 2 yr old brother is better at accprting the word No.
He cries if he isn't allowed to do what he wants.

I made a start chart thing last week with a "before school", "after school" and a "before bed" section. Ds1+ 2 have to get a star in each section to earn pocket money. Ds2 loves it and tries so hard to get his little chores done (it's stuff like, homework first then telly, put Pj's on bed, dirty clothes in washing bin in each section so nothing difficult) and has got a star in each section. Ds1 on the other hand has less than half the amount and he honestly couldn't care less. I really don't know why I've bothered making it for him.
He is harder work than ds2+3 put together and in 7months time when this new one arrives he'll still be harder work than all 3.

Over the years I've been on MN I've started a few threads like this about him so I'm really not sure if anyone has anything new to suggest. I think I just want to get it off my chest.

now that's the sort of language i understand (and use

, and there was me thinking how kind and sweet Cod was being lately

yes i cant stand it

arf

please let ltshs son not wka ehr up tomrorrow

did dose mine up with passiflora (like bach flower remedy) and did knock him out like a light (in nice homeopathic way)...
fingers crossed for lth.
dont you hate it when you all start the day grumpy and cross with each other... usually downhill all the way in this house when that happens...

I really relate to this LTH and also feel bonded to you like cod cos our littlies are the same age :)

I find it almost effortless to parent DS, not that he is perfectly behaved but he is so SIMPLE! D, my eldest constantly perplexes me and sometimes I really feel that Im not equipped to parent her adequately.

Bizarrely, and Im not sure why the last few days have been much better. I have had lots more "hhh isnt she just so lovely, clever, beautiful, kind, caring, funny etc" moments than usual and this breaks the negative cycle a bit.

I had been getting worried last week that I was becoming terrible, shouty parent to her and in turn she was becoming even more terrible to deal with.

I think some of it for us is that in school holidays a lot of the flash points (getting dressed on tme, homework, fitting everything in) is eliminated so Im more chilled and has more opportunity to earn praise.

Could you commit to in the morning being ridiculously over the top with praise. Make the first words you say to him "hello my gorgeous boy,your even more gorgeous today than you were yesterday, arent I lucky to have such a lovely boy" or something like that. It might help to start breaking the cycle. Then when hopefully things are a bit better you can have a strategic chat to him about the problems.

Would he go for a contract? Where he has to sign his name to promise a few things and you do to?

Do you think it's possible that your ds1 is so 'bad' because ds 2 is so 'good'? And is it possible that your ds 2 is so 'good' because he wants to show your your ds1?

All that business with the star charts - the very fact that your ds2 took to it so eagerly put ds1 off the whole idea?

I know my two sons have almost unconsciously have carved a niche for themselves - one loves the army, one loves cricket - they both have little time for each other's passion. One son is open and a terrible chatterbox, the other is much more hidden and subtle. It is fascinating to see how ds2 (nearly 7 years old) veers towards hobbies and personality traits that are different to ds1 - if he can compete, he doesn't try to, as he thinks ds1 will win or has cornered that trait in the family already. There is a big age gap between them, admittedly - 5 years, but still, they are so different. I do think some of it is that they have have chosen to react against each other.

So I wonder if your ds1 is doing a lot of reacting to his brothers, consciously or unconsciously - and if you can somehow show him he can be different without being naughty, find some qualities in him that are unique, tell him how much better he is at 'xyz' than his brothers, give him more one to one time to be separate from his brothers, this will reduce the attention seeking and make him feel more secure in himself. IME OTT flattery can work really well - backed up by special time. Now could be a good time to find a new interest for your ds1 - something he alone goes to and has some aptitude for. Perhaps your dh can help here?

If you can also let more of his behaviour (dinner table, tidying up etc) wash over you, it might make for more peace. He may be on the young side for this, but if he isn't good with tidying, is there something else he can do that's helpful to you instead? ie my oldest son from the age of 10 or so did some family cooking. He is still rubbish at cleaning his room and getting himself ready, but he will prepare a proper breakfast or supper for his brother while I do something else and he knows how much I value that.

Anyway, just my thoughts - incidently, it's my oldest son too who is the most attention seeking - I have not yet 100% worked out why but it can be very frustrating.

I got like this with Lottie recently. She just wound me up, and I just wanted her to piss off and leave me alone with the wonderful, adorable DD2. We seem to have got out of the rut we were in and thank god for that. But that's what I began to see it as, a rut that we had to work at getting out of and I think we are there, for now anyway.

I don't know where I read this, but recently I read :

"Children need our love the most when they deserve it the least".

Very, very true.

Hope you sort it with him soon, hope you break the cycle, the pattern, hope you get out of the rut etc. Horrible feeling this way mate, you have my sympathies.

WOW....so many posts!!
I'll read them all in a mo but just wanted to let you know that he didn't wake me up today.
I heard him coughing at about 6am but he was already downstairs so not sure what time he got up.

I didn't actually wake up again until 7:30, when ds2 got up and they were...err.debating something downstairs.

Right will read all the posts now.....

Ohhhhh the early waking thing My sympathies again.
DD1 gets up between 4.30 and 6.30 but this last week or so it's been the 4.30 end.

my ds is like this. sleep isn't an issue but he has no repsect for any of his things, so half of them are in a box in the cupboard at the mo. He doesn't do as his told unless you threaten him and constantly winds dd up. The only way I can get thru to him is by shouting and I hate it. He clashes badly with dh and they annoy each other so sometimes it's easier when dh is at work..

Tigermoth,I just realised my two eldest do that too,six year gap.
LTH,did he get lots of praise for not coming into your room?That's a good start to the day.

Ok, have read it all between refereeing the boys and there is alot of good stuff you've all said.

ATM Ds3 goes to bed last because ds1+2 share and they talk/giggle so he(ds3) gets up/wakes up if he goes first. They are generally good at bed time and it's only a few minutes that they chat but it's enough to wake ds3. Will try and change it all around.

Really hadn't thought of the waking me thing as a way to get my attention first. I just get so frustated by it and get cross. Feel a bit sad that thats probably why he does it. Might suggest he gets a book to read and he can get in DH's place when he's at work then I can snooze.

The one-2-one time we do have is nice and we both always say to each other how nice it is to be together without ds2+3 creating havoc. It just not fun one-2-one time, just usually shopping and stuff.

I'm absolutley sure ds2 behaves better because he see how much trouble ds1 gets in. Ds2 certainly isn't a saint but he definatley "amends" his behaviour when ds1 is being nagged. On the other hand DS1 always loves to point out when/where ds2 has been naughty. They both seem to relish each others misery at being told off.

Table mannners. Now the main nagger over this is DH and TBH it does my head in. I'll tell them to eat nicely when DH is here but mostly it does roll over me because I'm totally fed up by dinnertime. DH is relentless though. DS1 has a thing about sitting back on his chair and putting his knees up to the table which drives DH insane.
I'm now sure if we both need to change our "gameplan" at dinnertime where I am more consistent or dh chills abit more.
Dh constantly says "when I was your age I always ate all my dinner/what I was given/didn't mess about/used knife and folk properly etc etc. I've said 1000 times that I bet he didn't and that it's ridiculous to say he always did but he still say he did.
I was a very fussy eater as a child so if the boys are like me with a father who always ate all his dinner it's going to be along hard slog.

The over the top praise thing will be really hard for me.....deep stuff coming now.....My mum and dad just weren't cuddley, kissy, full of praise type parents so the way I am now is directly linked to to way I was bought up. I'm not a touchy feely person at all. If I'm upset and crying Dh will put his arms around me but I always pull away and turn away from him. It's the same with the boys, if they fall over or are upset, of course I'll check they are ok but then it's just a ruffle of the hair with a "come on it's alright, stop crying".
I suppose I'm just not a very warm person.

Christ what a horrid admission

Anyway what I mean is that I never remember being praised for stuff as a child and it's so ingrained in me that I'll have to relearn my whole life. I would honestly cringe to if I had to say what you suggested Pecka("hello my gorgeous boy,your even more gorgeous today than you were yesterday, arent I lucky to have such a lovely boy") and thats crap isn't it??

didn't think this would turn into a confessional for me.

can't talk long as am at work, but want to return to this later. LTH - I think many of us seem to be able to relate to this. But it's swings and roundabouts. My best friend swears blind I 'favour' one son over theother. But I think I (secretly) favour the other...but the irony is the one I secretly favour is the one who, 2/3 years ago I used to promise myself ''just One more day like this and he's going in a carboard bos#x to barnardos.''

Cod - what's ''angry hands'' I like the sound of that cos my little ray of sunshine still has major 'anger management' issues

There's a really sweet story in the book Sibling Rivalry about a lady who has three sons. She's in the car one day with middle son and he says something to her about the fact that his brothers are special and he's not. She realises that he doesn't feel loved for being himself so she tells him why she loves him as an individual...what's great about him and what's great about his brothers and why they are all different.

She also suggests that they spend some time on their own with him each week because she also realises that she hasn't been on her own with him since he was a baby.

That's the day that turns it around. It's a good book....wordy and loads of examples but explains a great deal of the issues that surrounded my childhood.

Hi LTH
What a wonderfully honest post... I think it does sound like you ( and your dh ) have some work to do but don't feel that you have to relearn your whole life
Take it a day at a time, in little steps.
You might choke on cornflakes saying 'hello my gorgeous boy,your even more gorgeous today than you were yesterday, arent I lucky to have such a lovely boy' but if you can break it down to saying 'aren't you a good boy', aren't you big and clever etc when he does or says good/nice things...

I would definitely try and get your dh to chill out about the dinner table. Constantly monitoring a child's behaviour does zilch for their self esteem and makes them more likely to act up.
Take the pressure away, ratchet up the praise a bit more and they are much more likely to behave.

Have you and your dh sat down and watched the house of tiny tearaways or little angels ever?

Loads of good advice on postive parenting and could trigger some useful conversations between the two of you as to how you can tackle this problem together...

Anyway good luck with it all and don't be too hard on yourself!

Hi LTOH,
Just wanted to post in response to your feelings that you are not a “warm person”. I so so know what you mean as I had a similar experience. It’s very difficult to overcome isn’t it? Mine is so ingrained that I have/am struggling with the whole concept of having kids as I have trouble ‘getting’ the warmth/love thing (so all I see in having kids is the work and sacrifices).
BUT…. I should point out that talking about it (I actually went to see a counsellor for a few months which was helpful) and really trying to work on that side of myself has made a difference. I know it sounds nuts but if you can force yourself to do small things like the cuddles and stuff (or in my case talk warmly about what having a child would be like) you start to find it gets a bit easier. And then I suppose you start to see the pleasure in it (although I admit I am still at the cringing in embarrassment staring at the floor stage!) You sound like a really lovely lady- please please don’t believe in that long held self portrait of yourself as not being warm, its just not true, you may not have found the best ways to show it yet but you will. It’s a question of reaching into that little locked box and trying to prise it open, its tricky because you were brought up to believe that the stuff in the box should be kept there and that’s quite a powerful message. It very hard to unlearn deep rooted behaviours so how about small steps- little cuddles, try one over the top praisy things a day……I promise it will become less embarrassing and more pleasurable as time goes on….. Good luck with it and keep me posted.

I bought the 'How to talk..' book this week, having read about it here and spent the whole of yesterday while the girls were at their grandma's reading it. There's a lot to take in, but the praise thing is actually one of the most straightforward, and I think you'll find the way they suggest in the book easier than you think.

What they advise is that you praise specifically and descriptively-- you 1. describe what you see. 2. describe how it makes you feel and 3. sum it up in one word.

So, next time one of my dds tidies away when she'd told to I can say 'well done, all the pens have been put in the right place. I love it when the place looks tidy. You're very helpful' or similar.

The section on freeing children from playing roles is very good and surprisingly simple. Frankly most of the time I think dd1 behaves like a spoilt, selfish brat so I now have to work on putting her in situations where I can say to her 'that was really kind of you darling. You're very considerate.' She's at a sleepover at the moment, so it all seems so easy. I suspect that the moment she walks back through the door again it won't though...

Cod, the book just arrived. Thank you. It looks brand new, I'll take good care of it.

Hettie, for me it's a bit different. I don't see the sacrifices etc of having them. I absolultey LOVE babies and (christ another admission coming) when we had ds2...then 3 I really did notice a sharp decrease in my affections for the older one/s
I always assumed it would come back but it never did. The baby would get all the kisses and cuddles all day whereas I'd be going the hair ruffle thing with the older 2 instead...when I suspect they wanted some of that affection.

Now there another one coming into the whole mix it's going to get alot harder to find affection for all of them.

I'm debating about whether to let/make Dh read this later. I've known for a long time that this is a problem and that MY issues are all part of it but I'm not sure Dh will be so sure he has work to do too....

I honestly did not expect such a big reponse on this. It really means alot to me, Thank you all so much.
I also had no idea it would make me confess so much....Mumsnet rocks!!

LTH, just wanted to say I too had parents who were not very demonstrative and so I have trouble in that area too - not so much the cuddling bit but saying "I love you" for example - always find it odd when I hear other mothers shouting it at their kids as the go in to school....

Regarding the mealtimes, I was a fussy eater and my ds's are also - so I am happy if they eat, rather than how they eat. I know I was late learning to use cutlery properly so don't force the issue with mine. It is hard when both parents have different views on things - I think you need to decide together whish things are important enough to nag about and which don't matter too much

Lady Topham
Sounds like my ds,particularly when we say no and the playing and going ott.Loads of great advice on this thread isn't there?

I meant to ask..how old is your ds mine is nearly 7.

hope book is ok lth

thik theres some hugging to eb done here or somethign where you need to touch more
do you take them swimming?

and what abotu you booking yourself a massgae once a month? good use of child beenfit tbh. :)

thihk youa re great to work through thhis
good for you
and of COURSE tis all about you dimmo

angry hands

(t.m cods dh)

put hands by side side ways on ( so to speak) put all findgers toatehr as if you are going to s tart a sprint. fingers hard intot each other and out again

lady Topham,

I wouldn't beat yourself up for not praising, hugging etc etc. I had parents who were undemonstrative ( I can 't remember the words I love you very often) but I never doubted for a minute that they loved me. Sometimes actions speak louder than words. IMO it's hard to be affectionate when you have more than two kids; there is only so much of you.