Help with evening melt-downs

[Gavenna]

Hi all, new to mumsnet - decided to join today having generally run out of ideas!

Our boy is 6 weeks old and healthy and normal. We muddled through the first weeks and probably instilled a number of bad habits, including a dependency on us to sleep (on our chest), plus dummies, teddy bears that play sound - basically we tried everything to encourage him to sleep. He was probably a bit collicy, used to wake every 3-4 hours over night for feeds, not really sleeping and quite fussy throughout the day.

He gradually became more and more unhappy and difficult to settle, which was affecting our sanity as well as his.

We're now using Infacol and Colief and these seem to have settled some discomfort post feeds (we also tried gripe water but that seemed to make things worse).

A week ago we committed to the Sensational Baby Sleep Plan and removed the dummies, put him in his own room, and established a routine. The results were almost immediately positive - he now sleeps properly and is happy during the day, and goes 7/8 hours overnight.

It has not all been plain sailing however. Every evening we feed and bathe him, then put him down about 7.30 to 8pm. The wailing starts immediately and quickly becomes full blown melt down - for the next 2-3 hours. At 10pm we tend to do his last feed and after that he will moan briefly and then sleeps through to breakfast time.

Obviously it could be a lot worse, but the 3 hours of screaming every night is pretty horrendous - he makes himself hoarse and gets in a right state. We try to comfort him in line with Allison's guidance but anything less than picking him up and cuddling him for a few minutes has little effect - and I'm worried that picking him up just re-enforces his dependency on us for comfort.

He never really pukes significantly. I don't think it's silent reflux as he has no problems during day feeds or at 10pm, and we don't do anything different feeding wise. Nonetheless we have tilted his basket up a little but it hasn't helped. He's bottle fed so we know he's not hungry. He's fine as soon as we pick him up so I don't think there's anything physically wrong.

What are we doing wrong?!

Gavenna

Brices the OP was saying she doesn't cuddle her DS when he cries. I'm not a co-sleeping sling wearer by any means but to me leaving a 6 week old to cry for 3 hours and not cuddling him borders on cruelty. I didn't use sleep routines myself but I have nothing against them as long as they're gentle and go with what the baby is ready for. It sounds like your babies took to it really well and you didn't leave them to cry for long before picking them up. There is a difference between that and putting the baby in a room with no comfort for three hours until he exhausts himself to sleep.

I'm sorry, but I absolutely disagree that the majority on mn are co sleeping sling wearers! (not that there's anything wrong with that at all, keeping a little baby close to you, what an outlandish idea!).

The book you are following is opinion based and not evidence based. When I've looked for information to help me with my DC I've always tried to look for evidence based information. For me this makes more sense.

If you would like to read an evidence based book, maybe just to glean some tips to help you with the early evenings, then try baby calming by Caroline deacon, no cry sleep solution by Elizabeth pantley or sound sleep which is an nct book.

Some posters have made some good points too. The book you are following ignores some quite important evidence on looking after young babies. Before continuing with your chosen book I think you need to have a look on the fsids site at their advice on reducing the risk of cot death and colditz's post (andothers) are completely correct, brain development is affected by crying, something your author is blithely ignoring. I would recommend you read up on that one as well.

Also, nobody is suggesting you hold your baby for 20 hours a day but being close to you does regulate hormones, breathing and heartbeats, which are all beneficial. Perhaps using a sling in the day would help and waiting until he was in a deep sleep before you put him down and go to bed yourself.

All that you have described so far is just normal baby behaviour.

I never coslept and hardly used a sling.

I'm sorry, but I've just reread the op, and I find it really upsetting that he's crying to the extent of making himself hoarse, this is cruel! He's a tiny baby! Also, I have no experience of ff, but surely he could still be hungry? It's common for bf babies to cluster feed in the evenings, so surely ff babies might do this too?

please be wary of other posters personally I would be more wary of someone who advocated ignoring the current advice on cot death and the evidence on baby brain development but each to their own I guess.

Is this Alison the one the nspcc issued a statement about after that tv program in 2007?

Certainly FF babies sometimes need to feed extra to what it says on the tin. Just last night my 8wo formula fed baby had an extra 2oz at 11pm as she was inconsolable. She fell asleep instantly and stayed in her basket till 6am.
She's fed on a 4 hr schedule but had feeds at 6pm, 9pm and 11pm last night as she was clearly hungry. I'm not sure how I'd have known that if she was shut off in a dark room to cry about it.

As for sleep aids... What's the big deal? I'm all grown up yet I like my particular pillow, my duvet tucked under my feet and all the cupboard doors shut. Why is it ok for adults to use sleep aids but we forbid a baby similar comfort?

And I'm not a sling wearer or a co-sleeper. I believe strongly in routine and will be starting DD2 on one in good time but at 8wo she's just not ready yet, IMHO.

He sounds like a normal baby who may have colic. Cranial osteopathy and colief helped both of mine, although quite possibly time did too. By 14 weeks evenings were much more peaceful.

I think most posters are shocked at placing a strict routine on a little baby because they've been there, done that and they know you don't have to leave a baby to cry. Babies aren't projects and too many of these parenting guides present parenting as something that is goal oriented with the goal being 12 hours sleep at night. Great for the parent, but not essential to the cost of everything else for the child. Throw the parenting guides away (with the exception of What Mothers Do - which isn't really a guide, but a description).

OP you might want to read this (evidence based) book on brain development.

Here's what FSIDS have to say about looking after your baby and reducing the risk of Cot Death.

OP have a read of these on colic, you might find the tips useful [smile}

What's Colic? Does your baby have colic? How to tell.

10 tips for comforting colic

5 coping tips for parents.

5 possible hidden causes of colic

and Colic will soon pass.

Oh and Brices I've used a sling sometimes, and sometimes I've stuck them in bed with me. I've never, ever once posted asking for sleep help, unlike this follower of ASW . I also have 2, bright, socialable, mature DC one of whom asked to go to bed at 6.50pm because she was tired.

As a baby sleep specialist.. I would not advocate leaving such a young baby to cry :( I also don't do any sleep training under 6 months, only vague routines that are added to as time goes on

You won't make a rod for your own back by holding

Sounds like colic as its at the same time every night for the same amount of time every night.
Don't leave him to cry it out, he has a sore tummy and can't fix it by himself. My daughter started with this at about 6 weeks and it disappeared at 5 months. The only thing that would help with her was walking her round the block in her sling. Not because i'm a hippy, because the upright position made it easy for the trapped wind to move up or down. She used to fart and burp and cry her way round the block for an hour. For some reason crying didn't sound as bad outside and it was far less stressful than trying to stop her from waking her brother inside.
She'd fall asleep after an hour and then i'd put her in her cot, much better than listening to her scream for 3 hours!

There are dozens of different experts out there and the one thing they seem to agree is don't sleep train before 6 months; he's 6 weeks!

Surely you have come across this in your research and reading?

Also it would really worry me that you're not following the current guidelines to reduce the risk of cot death.

Please don't let a tiny baby cry for hours

To answer some questions...
We're in & out of the room for reassurance visits every 5-10mins and give him a little 'it's sleepy time now' message. If he is really crying I pick him up to calm him down then put him back to bed once he's settled a bit more.
This method works perfectly well at every other time of the day where he will only grumble for 2mins and then straight to sleep. Since starting this routine he has become a calm, playful and very happy little boy because he is actually getting the sleep he needs. Before he was constantly overtired and had all the traits of a sleep deprived baby.

it really is just this 7-10pm period

Again, thank you for the advice & appologies to anyone upset by the 1st post. There really wasn't enough room/time to detail exactly HOW we handle this period. Please be assured he is not screaming on his own in a dark room for 3 hours.

G

He's screaming in the 7 to 10pm period because he is HUNGRY. Babies cluster feed all evening, it's a need, that you must allow him to do. Stop trying to put him to bed at seven, it is not a natural bedtime for a newborn. He needs mummy. He needs to be held, and he needs to be fed.

Just keep him downstairs until he falls asleep. He needs to be in the same room as you or yre putting him at risk of cot death. Pease listen to us. We a not all hippies, some of us have raised happy and well disciplined children, but what y are doing is not appropriate for a baby of six weeks old. He cannot do what you want him to do, please stop trying to make him before you damage him.

It's sleepy time is Really not understood by a 6 week old.

Please listen to everyone.

This are the best days, soon he will be big And running around. Newborn snuggles are the best.
He won't end up being dependant on you, my eight week old is becoming more independent every day. Some nights she's asleep by 7 and I ache for her to wake for a cuddle and I've had PND.
Yes. Some mornings I put her in my bed after she wakes at five. And snuggling til nine is the best.
Did u say you are FF? I can understand how demanding it might be if you are BF but I'm bottle feeding now due to my health and I have to admit I feel better for it and she is on extra hungry formula

Oh dear. It really sounds like you are set on this routine and whatever advice you get won't make any difference. I am not a sling wearing hippy either. Your routine is great for a 6 month old but not a newborn. I really think you need to lower your expectations or you and your baby will be very unhappy.
Good luck

Agree with the others, you seem to be absolutely faithful to this book even though it has possible dangerous consequences, including death and it obviously doesn't work for all babies or you wouldn't be posting asking for advice.

Welcome to MN and good luck with your lovely little newborn.

He has colic. Sore tummy/over tiredness seem to be triggers. Most babies grow out if it by 12 weeks. It is torture for all of you but I think you need to accept that it is like this for now and be grateful he sleeps well the rest of the time. Reducing all stimulation for a few hours before bed definitely helped ds with his colic but overall it's a waiting game. Do some research.

We're in & out of the room for reassurance visits every 5-10mins and give him a little 'it's sleepy time now' message

You do that with an older child, your baby is a newborn.

Babies need to be held - some constantly. Get a sling and get used to his 'dependence' because there will be a lot more of it to come.

"We're in & out of the room for reassurance visits every 5-10mins and give him a little 'it's sleepy time now' message"

He is 6 weeks old. I find that statement deeply depressing. Please do some research about child development. Your baby has no concept of time. When you are not there he thinks you have gone forever. His distress is unimagineable.

His distress is unimagineable

^ that