Help with evening melt-downs

[Gavenna]

Hi all, new to mumsnet - decided to join today having generally run out of ideas!

Our boy is 6 weeks old and healthy and normal. We muddled through the first weeks and probably instilled a number of bad habits, including a dependency on us to sleep (on our chest), plus dummies, teddy bears that play sound - basically we tried everything to encourage him to sleep. He was probably a bit collicy, used to wake every 3-4 hours over night for feeds, not really sleeping and quite fussy throughout the day.

He gradually became more and more unhappy and difficult to settle, which was affecting our sanity as well as his.

We're now using Infacol and Colief and these seem to have settled some discomfort post feeds (we also tried gripe water but that seemed to make things worse).

A week ago we committed to the Sensational Baby Sleep Plan and removed the dummies, put him in his own room, and established a routine. The results were almost immediately positive - he now sleeps properly and is happy during the day, and goes 7/8 hours overnight.

It has not all been plain sailing however. Every evening we feed and bathe him, then put him down about 7.30 to 8pm. The wailing starts immediately and quickly becomes full blown melt down - for the next 2-3 hours. At 10pm we tend to do his last feed and after that he will moan briefly and then sleeps through to breakfast time.

Obviously it could be a lot worse, but the 3 hours of screaming every night is pretty horrendous - he makes himself hoarse and gets in a right state. We try to comfort him in line with Allison's guidance but anything less than picking him up and cuddling him for a few minutes has little effect - and I'm worried that picking him up just re-enforces his dependency on us for comfort.

He never really pukes significantly. I don't think it's silent reflux as he has no problems during day feeds or at 10pm, and we don't do anything different feeding wise. Nonetheless we have tilted his basket up a little but it hasn't helped. He's bottle fed so we know he's not hungry. He's fine as soon as we pick him up so I don't think there's anything physically wrong.

What are we doing wrong?!

Gavenna

[WillowB]

Oh he is still so tiny! I've been through the newborn baby bit fairly recently & it's only since about 3-4 months I managed to establish any sort of routine. until then you need to go with the flow. Don't worry about bad habits at this age. If he wants a dummy or a cuddle, give him one! I would second offering more milk. I FF DS and he cluster fed like mad during the evenings. I remember going out to the pub for a meal with friends, feeding him a 5oz bottle & then him crying non stop. I cuddled him, changed him etc & finally thought 'well be cant possibly be hungry, I just fed him'. He was & polished off another full bottle! This evening feeding frenzy went on till he was about 10 weeks.
He will learn to self settle to get to sleep as he gets older. DS has only just got the hang of it at 6 months I can put him down in his cot, put his lullaby toy on and leave the room, before then he needed a dummy. Some of the babes in my antenatal group needed rocking, patting or swaddling but none of them went to sleep without any help whatsoever. Can you try and find a way of soothing him so that he doesn't cry so much? You will be able to wean him off it as he gets older.

[EMS23]

You're sleep training a colicky 6 week old? Seriously?

[valiumredhead]

BTW I have nothing agains FF - ds was FF fed. The reason I posted that review was the bit about ignoring the baby's cues for hunger.

[stinkymice]

Please tell me this is a wind up. No one would seriously leave a 6 week old to cry for 3 hours would they?

[Gav80]

Thanks for the immediate responses all, much appreciated.

If it had just been a question of having him asleep on the sofa with us every evening, we wouldn't have an issue. Instead he just wouldn't sleep - all day - and in the end would be so over-tired and irritable that we had to continuously walk round with him, until the early hours of the morning, just to keep him calm. He was getting no quality sleep and nor were we, and it was spiralling out of control.

Since starting this routine he now gets proper sleep, through most of the night, and sleeps well during the day. He is visibly much happier. This is such an improvement, believe me.

As for hunger, we feed him until he doesn't want any more. A bit later we'll see if he wants to finish off the bottle - he usually doesn't. This evening he drank 180ml - I think the most he has ever had - and was still screaming as per usual. Surely if he was hungry he'd want to eat more? He doesn't.

We feed him every 3 hours during the day, usually his demand coincides with this but if he is asleep we will wake him, the theory being to feed him well during the day reduces he calorie requirement overnight.

We know he's comforted by us, and wouldn't want it otherwise. But we don't want him dependent on us (and other comforting devices) and not able to settle himself to sleep. Having a baby that can only sleep if being held by us doesn't seem a good idea - a baby apparently needs 16 -20 hours sleep a day, and we physically can't hold him that long.

Clearly there is a balance to be struck - hence the request for help. I don't think "just cuddle him some more" is all that constructive as far as advice goes, well meaning as it is.

As for the feeding after bathing, we'll give that a go, sounds like a good idea. Will look up cranial osteopathy - thanks for those helpful tips.

Irania - I had wondered if everything was a bit stimulating, and hence not sleep inducive, just before bed. Perhaps we need to re-jig our routine a little. Thanks.

Valium - this wasn't a query about breast/bottle feeding, and, not that it's relevent here, in my view the book wasn't biased one way or another. I don't know why you're so strongly against it - have you read it? A book is just someone's opinion written down - just the same as a post on a forum. The book we read was recommended to us based on the good experiences of our friends. We want to be the best parents we can, and so we've been doing research - both on forums like mumsnet, and with books. I'm sorry one of these sources contradicts your opinion.

[QTPie]

Hi OP. How do you settle him? What do you do when you put him in his cot?

I really wouldn't get hung up on "getting him to self settle without props" this early. A friend is a paediatrician and says that you cannot spoil a newborn. I am quite a strict mum and don't encourage bad habits, but in the early days you "do what you have to" and it isn't too bad to "wean them off through fairly gentle transition" later.

I did get DS into a routine early (bath/bedtime routine at 3 weeks, feeding routine naturalky fell into place by about 5 weeks (down to one feed a night at that stage), naturally slept through by 12 weeks, daytime naps not in routine until about 6 months). I am pro routine, but trying to let it be "baby led" (ie they will sleep through when ready - although you can encourage it).

You do need a lot of patience with babies: 10pm until breakfast is blooming brilliant for a 6 week old! Plenty of parents would kill for that. When DS was 6 weeks, he would be bathed at about 8pm, then BF'd (long lazy feed, he used to feed to sleep), then rolled into his sleeping bag at about 9pm ish. He would sleep through to 4am (for a feed), then wake for the day at about 6/6.30am. Most parents would have killed for that at 6 weeks. He then dropped the 4am feed (and slept through) from 12 weeks.

I think ths your baby is doing very well, but the routine timings just don't suit him yet (he is not ready to sleep through yet). Regig your timings and look at how you soothe him to sleep.

[MrsCantSayAnything]

He IS dependent on you for comfort though. No matter HOW much you try to get rid of that need....he can't settle himself to sleep. He's been on the earth for 6 weeks.

A fart would amaze him still. He can't bloody work out how to calm himself down...or tell you he's got cramp or something!

He needs you there still.

[EMS23]

But he's your child, of course he's dependent on you.
I'm probably not the best person to comment here, our styles are worlds apart. I cuddled and rocked DD1 to sleep for a year. She was self settling long before then but I just liked doing it.
I'm currently cuddling DD2 to sleep. She is 8weeks old so by your reckoning I should be finding her need for me unacceptable and encouraging her out of it.

[Irania]

Valiumredhead -- I know what you mean... but I was just suggesting a method to sleep without going into a bawling state first. Up all night comforting is for later, maybe. Everyone needs to get a break on the first sleep session.

[yummumto3girls]

I feel you are too worried about what the text books say rather than what your DS needs and what you feel. My first DD was similar to yours, and I was similar to you. Crying lots in the evening (DD that is!), and me doing lots of research = result me feeling like I wasn't the perfect parent. 8 years later and DD3, no books lots of cuddles and one step at a time = one chilled baby. I have always insisted on a routine, 6 weeks is a good time to start but if they are crying at this age they need something. Why not pick up and have a cuddle? He is so young and you are depriving your DS of a basic need, it's cruel. You are expecting too much too soon, slow down and enjoy your baby instead of placing such high expectations on both yourselves and DS.

[colditz]

You need to hold a baby pretty much constantly or their brains don't develop properly. Never mind how anxious and unhappy he will be, you are risking making him thick.

[Imsosorryalan]

Please speak to your hv for further advice. Yes, as you say books and written routines are generally opinions so I am unsure why you are so determined to stick to this particular routine esp. When it doesn't seem to agree with your baby. For all you know, you could be doing more harm than good? Everyone has a different parenting style but please don't put aside your instincts for someone's opinion in a book.
Both my dcs responded more to close contact and reassurance than being left to cry or self sooth ( but certainly not at 6 weeks- maybe 6 months)..

[Pickles77]

Op this is making me sad.
He needs you. The days go so fast dd is now 7 weeks and she needs me. Wait until he's a bit older.
I second speaking to your HV, ask her for reccomendations of books if that's the route you want to go but if you look up controlled crying it might help explain age ranges and how he will learn in time to not be so dependent on you.
Have you tried baby groups too?

[NuzzleandScratch]

Do you know op, when I read the thread title, I thought this was going to be about a toddler! At 6 weeks old, he's not having a meltdown, he's just being a 6 week old baby! Please listen to what others have said & just give him a cuddle if that's what he wants. My dd2 is now 14 weeks, and until recently, wanted to be held most of the day. It was hard work, especially with a toddler to look after. But you know what, things have now improved, and she'll happily sit in her bouncy chair whilst we have breakfast for example, so don't believe any of this 'rod for your own back' nonsense, he's just too young for that. Babies cry for a reason, and if that reason is that he wants a cuddle, that's just as valid as a cry for milk.

We've only just started putting dd2 'to bed' for the evening, previously having her with us until we went to bed. The advice for SIDS is to have them in your room until 6 months, as they regulate their breathing by hearing yours, so I would suggest he's too young to be in his own room.

I would advise just to let go of the idea of a routine for now, and just enjoy your baby! Things will naturally fall into a routine before long anyway, but working yourself up about things now is pointless. He sounds like he's doing really well, but leaving him to cry for too long is potentially damaging.

Best of luck with it all!

[liveinazoo]

a ssling allows you to move about and do other things while still giving your baby comfort of knowing you are there

to leave such a young baby to cry for 3hours is damaging and i really hope you find what you are looking for that allows you to sleep and meets his needs

[Pickles77]

Sorry it's me again, have you tried the halo sleep sacks with the swaddle. I've got several and found them great as Dd loves to be swaddled. I got them on eBay much cheaper

[blacktreaclecat]

If you want a book I would suggest "The no cry sleep solution".
Any book that tells you not to pick up a screaming newborn is crazy and the author is a loon. Leaving a baby to cry that long alters the chemical balance in the brain with detrimental consequences for development.
BTW - not sure why I am awake but DS is snoring :)

[weegiemum]

Leaving a baby of that age to scream for 3 hours is damaging to brain development. Of course the wee thing is dependent on you, he's only 6 weeks old! I've got a 12,10 and 8 year old, they're still pretty much dependent on me &dh, because they're children.

In my experience, I tried a routine book when dd1 was about this age. It didn't work: it wasn't her routine and it didn't work so badly that I ended up in hospital with severe pnd. So maybe I'm biased.

And please check out the SIDS advice, because you are putting your ds at risk.

All the best, I hope you can find something that works for you all. Until you do, please don't let him cry like this.

[EMS23]

Can you clarify OP - are you actually leaving him to cry for those 3 hours? It's not clear from your post.

Also, you listed the 'problems' including waking every 3-4 hours overnight to feed. My understanding is that that frequency is normal for babies of this age. Obviously longer stretches are great but why did you think that was a bad thing?

I wonder where your expectations came from?

[CailinDana]

It is NOT healthy for a baby to be screaming its head off on its own in a dark room for three hours every day. How on earth could it be? It wouldn't be healthy for an adult to do that for god's sake!

Your baby has been in the world less than two months. Of course he's dependent on you. You just hold him as much as he needs to be held - that's why having a newborn is so exhausting. There is plenty of time in the rest of his life for people to "teach him a lesson" and deny him comfort but he is a tiny baby and you are his mother - this is your job and you need to do it, no matter how hard it is.

[CailinDana]

Oh and as EMS23 says, it's normal for newborns to wake multiple times for feeds during the night - they are growing incredibly fast and they need nutrition, not to be ignored.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

'picking him up just reinforces his dependency on us for comfort'.

You are trying to get rid of that when he is practically a newborn?

Babies cluster feed all evening at that age.

Seriously what I have read here is appalling.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

And babies need to feed through the night at that age and aren't able to sleep through until later

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

I will just say..he is a tiny baby and not some scientific project.

[Brices]

Hello
I used Alison's book and it has proved sensational for us, though this really goes against the views on mumsnet. Normally I lurk but am being brave posting!
Using the advice in Alison's book DD slept 7-7 at 10 weeks and DS at 9 weeks. They are now 21 months and 7 months and have constantly slept well.
Regarding the evening - my two were similar I think babies get tired near the end of their day, then the adrenalin, overtired = distress. Nothing unusual with your baby. With my son at this time we used a dummy to help settle, we sat beside the cot stroked his hair, sang lullabies, often just sitting beside him in dark. Yes picking him up for cuddle but then back down again stroking him etc.
You will get there!
Please be wary of other posts they mean well but you are vulnerable at this time. I always think that the majority here seem to wear slings and cosleep and seem to get very angst on this subject. You only need to read the Sleep boards and the problems there!!
I probably won't post again I don't wish to defend my views, but good luck your doing really well x