What do you think of this article - "permissive parenting"?

[emkaren]

I came across this article this article today and I was wondering what you wise Mumsnetters thought about this. I used to be a teacher in secondary school and I did often think that some of the teenagers were quite 'toxic' - much more rude and lacking respect than I remember my peers to have been! But I find the author's ideas about the roots of the problem quite questionable. My parenting style is mostly what you would call attachment parenting - co-sleeping, I breastfed dd1 until she self-weaned at 27 months, I never did controlled crying or anything like that - but I wouldn't say that this was 'permissive' parenting, and I seriously hope that the way I bring dd1 and dd2 up will have the opposite effect to what the author of the article thinks! Dd1 is now 31 months old, and while she has tantrums etc. she is altogether quite 'good' and cooperative. Have I just been lucky that she has turned out that way so far in spite of my 'wrong' parenting ways? By the way, I am emphatically NOT saying that only attachment parenting will give you a 'good' child - not at all, it's just the way that feels right to me, but I don't mean to criticize people who do controlled crying or whatever!!! Oh, and the other thing in the article that made me think was what he wrote about toilet training - dd1 isn't trained yet and I have been thinking that I'll just wait till she shows that she's ready - is that really such a laughable idea?
Anyway, I'd be interested to know what other people thought of the article!

"A host of new ?clinical diagnoses? have been invented to explain why children seem totally spoilt, untrained and unsocialised, and an incredibly large number have been diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and bombarded with psychoactive drugs"

Grrrrrrrrr. Guaranteed to get my back up. Hate people who judge when they know NOTHING about personal circumstances.

I fully agree that the comments about adhd where 100% out of order.
That said I teach a lot of children who are NT, with no special needs, who have no manners or any idea how to behave. They are amazingly rude, unco-operative, with a poor work ethic. They think that it is my job to entertain them and not to teach them and look at me with incredulity when I suggest that they will need to do some work if they are going to pass their GCSEs.

I believe that children should be praised and supported and encouraged to do their best, but not to the point where they honestly believe that they are gods gift to whatever without doing any work. We are not doing them any favours if we don't give them a realistic idea of what life is like when they leave school.

Many of these kids are convinced that they will get picked up by Pop Idol when they leave school. They don't sing in a band, you understand, it is just going to happen to them.

I'm not sugesting that attachment parenting is a bad thing either, but by the time you have teenagers telling then 'no' on occasion isn't a bad idea either.

Yep that phrase made me mad as well Oakmaiden. There seems to be a bit of a tabloid thing at the moment (ST tabloid ha ha- well it is) about making out that ADHD?AS etc are all made up. Really they should be asking "why" its happening and do something quickly. LAst time I wrote to the expert mentioned in the piece (the researcher who said all ADHD children needed to do was climb trees) and she sent me a cooy of the press release she had sent to the Times. The Times had twisted it comepletely. I think they do have some sort of agenda. Certainly his piece won;t make my life in public any easier (of course my son's autism is all made up- that's why he can't speak at 4 and a half- I haven't said no to him enough times- laughable really).

Hmb - I know what you mean about attitude (2 and half hours on my internet chat room teaching job and my head is reeling- and most of the kids on thier are great- and you can boot the ones who aren't but still), but don't you think teenagers have always been like that- just less open about it.

Did wonder whether blokey who wrote it had any kids himself.

Remember the Times was the paper that promoted the Aids isn't caused by the HIV virus bt a few years ago.

I hope that people don't think that I have a 'down' on all teenagers. Most that I teach are normal teenagers (IYSWIM) and some are great! But some are almost feral. I don't think it is caused by attachment parenting, but rather the lack of any sort of parenting.

It can be so easy at the end of a long day not to want to argue the toss about behaviour with our kids. I've been there and dd is only 7. After all we love them, who wants to argue with them. But a line has to be drawn for kids at some point, and for these kids it isn't drawn at home. Either parents can't or woun't give a damn about their behaviour and let them get away with murder. Not in my lab they don't.....

I am a regular mumsnetter but am afraid to say that I have changed my name as I fear that what I have to say will be very unpopular...but don't want to be judged for it for the rest of my time here!

I agree with most of the things that he says. I think children are completely indulged these days, teaching manners seems very unpopular and most children I know have no idea how to entertain themselves or indeed have any free time to entertain themselves in. With both parents working we have lost those lovely lazy days at home when you learnt to entertain yourself and discover things for yourself. Children DO need boundaries - teaching them to sleep at night is a gift not a punishment. And I am convinced that conditions like ADHD are totally over diagnosed - I have a pet theory that most ADHD kids would be very much improved with a comforting routine and a good diet. That is not to say it doesn't exist - I am sure it does, but like people with food allergies, I just don't believe they exist in the numbers reported.

So do you think then, Bling, that there is a direct link between letting a child sleep in your bed, letting him/her become dry in their own time etc., and terrible behaviour when they are teenagers? My reasoning has always been that I want to give my children all the security possible at a young age, trying to meet their need for closeness etc/ so that they can develop complete trust in me, which will hopefully lead to a good and mutually respectful relationship later on. But that does not mean that I don't set boundaries - I certainly don't let my dd1 do whatever she likes!

I think he's mixing up two separate ideas, that of 'attachment' parenting and that of anything-for-a-quiet-life parenting (sorry not very eloquent!). I see attachment parenting as just one method of responding to your child's needs, while his examples of doling out money and missed curfews, I think, are more a matter of parents taking the line of least resistance, which can be questionable. I don't know many people who raise their children like that anyway, tbh.

I see a bit where he's coming from wrt to potty training, in that I've found that my children needed some encouragement. I think my dd's would still be in nappies if I hadn't made efforts to train them; they were quite happy to sit in poo and wee!!

But generally, I think his argument is a load of oblox. If attachment parenting is so bad places like Indonesia, where as a society they are very child-focused, would be overun with badly behaved brats. In fact, the opposite is true; you never see a child crying, let alone tantrumming.

Jimjams - I wondered just the same, whether he has kids.

There is a big difference between attachment parenting and permissive parenting, and IMO the author of this is confusing the two. WRT the potty training thing, you can't force a child who is not ready, to potty train, so you have to wait until they're ready. I just get the idea he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

I do think there are certain problems with the way we parent, but IMO he's way off the mark. I'm not going into my own reasons because I don't want to start a row.

Attachment parenting, to me, is about gentle nurturing of the individual, rather than one-size-fits-all parenting. It is not the neglectful make-up-for-it-with-gifts etc type of parenting that is implied by the term permissive parenting

Arghhh, the last 5 messages came in while I was taking ages over typing!

Bling, I don't think anyone is denying that children need boundaries. I agree with suedonim, he is confusing the idea of attachment parenting with permissive parenting.

Yeah I agree with that.

I do assume that "Bling" has never met a child with ADHD. They are off the scale in my experience. I suggest you read Jacqui Jackson's book Multicoloured Mayhem (or what her documentary) for a very good illustration of what ADHD is like. Her son Joe is on an extremely strict diet, her eldest son Luke has written about the doet. Love abounds through that house. And yet Joe still trashes the place, and still doesn't understand. Have a look at Luke's site for starters.

A lot of phsychs who work in the field actually believe that ADHD is under-diagnosed, especially in girls.

Had a trip to the supermarket last week. A day after ds1 had eaten gluten for 2 days in the trot. He screamed for half the trip- and really screamed. The trouble with this sort of article is that if I say to someone "oh sorry he's autistic" then people don;t believe me and a further chorus of tut tuts follows. It really dos make my day to day life harder. If I had time then I could stop and point out that he's non-verbal etc and maybe they would believe that it was real. It's easier to grow a thicker skin, but it would be even easer if Joe Public was more understanding and less quick to criticise. I don't come home in tears very often these days, but I have done in the past.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with attachment parenting.

I wonder whether he has been reading into the "TCS theory" (Treating Children Seriously) - whereby co-ercing your child to ANYTHING is a complete no-no and letting the child decide for themselves.

At the end of the day, children need boundaries/guidance from us - and sometimes that means we have to say "no".

watch her documentary I mean

jimjams - i read luke jackson's book 'freaks, geeks...'
it really helped me as a teacher to get to the 'nitty gritty' of what it is ike for children with apserger's syndrome
not entirely realted to this thread but a very 'eye opening' read for those who have no real life experience of this

There was something in what he said, I will grant you. A lot of children I know are quite simply intolerable brats whose parents don't seem to be able to make the effort to control them. (I am thinking about one child in particular here ).

But I am SO FED UP of people starting talking about the behaviour of children whose parents have poor parenting skills, and then suddenly announcing that the fault is attachment parenting (because it isn't) and then capping it all by saying that children with ADHD and AS have bad parents. I am a very consistent parent - I keep to a reliable routine; I always enforce polite and respectful behavour; if I tell my son to do something I expect him to do it, and will make sure that he complies; I notice and praise "good" behaviour and penalise innappropriate behaviour, and I DON'T praise him when it is clear he is not even trying very hard. And yet my son has been diagnosed with ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome - apparently because I am too permissive in my parenting style. When he was first diagnosed with ADHD he was considered to be "oppositional" as well, although since starting Ritalin this hsa improved enormously - sorry "bombarding him with a psychoactive drug". My poor parenting probably caused his Tourette's Syndrome too, don't you think?

It is SO easy to just lump all this together and to say that there is a problem with the "youth of today" and the root cause is poor parenting. Whereas our parent's generation (from which most of the stones are cast) were all such wonderful parents....

Am I starting to rant?

Hi,

New kid on the block and not a troll (?) and probably picking the wrong thread to say hello on but... The author doesn't refer to attachement parenting during his article (I think?) so why take his comments as a direct critisim of that type of parenting?
A number of his comments are, I believe, valid and in general is he not suggesting that all children need boundaries and dare I say it rules and that is where society is failing them now? I believe that we all need to learn what behaviour is acceptable and when and vice-a-versa and that allowing your child to always behave in the manner that suits them does not teach those lessons. With the subsequent consequences for society's behaviour that the majority of people who have contributed so far seem to agree are not ideal.

Only my opinion and please be gentle with a new girl

The author has 4 grown up children apparently.

HAHAHAHAHA...the opening paragraph. Yes!!! only middle class children have tantrums and end up spoilt. Why didn't I see it before?

I agree that he does no-one any favours by lumping all badly behaved children together. And his statement regarding ADHD is like a red rag to a bull, he obviously has no understanding of it whatsoever. Probably put in there to promote a reaction and fill next weeks ?letters? page

There is a huge difference between ?attachment parenting? and no parenting at all. I have a relative who is a ?permissive parent? in the most complete sense. Her children are never told ?no? or given boundaries for their behaviour. An example is her 6 year old stabbing a restaurant table with a steak knife and then when told to stop, by me, running around the room with said steak knife to the horror of our fellow diners, whilst she looks on :0. The only behavioural problems her children have are the ones she has landed them with .....and she wonders why her ds isn?t coping at school!

My teenage ds1 (NT) is usually unresponsive and sullen, and probably looks unhappy (certainly when out with me) yet I was neither a permissive nor attachment parent, not with him anyway.

The the Mrs Mitchell thing, I do think that a bit of healty neglect is probably a good thing. It doesn't do anyone any good to be put first all the time (obviously we are not talking about tiny babies here). Having to learn to wait and take turns should be part of any good upbringing. My children are a vital part of our family, but not the only part. Sometimes other peoples' needs must come first.

Children also need to know that life is not one long trip to Disney land and that sometimes you just have to get on with things. The ability to amuse yourself and deal with boredom is an important lifeskill IMHO. And they also need to learn that sometimes life is unfair.
And I fully agree that children need strong boundaries to help them to develop into healty adults. They will push until they find them. If they don't find them at home they will push in school, and if school fails them they find them with the police. I think that boundaries help children explore the world, because the understand that in the end you will step in and stop them from doing anything too drastic.

Don't blame you Oaky. It drives me mad as well. The thing with having a child on the specturm is you have to be consitent, you have to be artict (otherwise give in once and a pattern is set), you have to be very clear about what is and isn't approprate (otherwise you'll have a child stripping in public). Mixed messages simply do not work. I know that with ds2 I can get away with sloppy parenting from time to time, I simply cannot with ds1.

Yet some pratt can sit back and hammer out articles as he saw some stroppy kid in the supermarker. Sure moan about stropy kids, and lax parenting, just don't bring ADHD into it. Not until you've spent a week with a kid ADHD or someehere on the spectrum and had a chance to use all those wonderful parneting skills you have that thier parent obviously is too stupid to possess (otherwise the kid woudn;t be ADHD right?) Blimey I'm ranting now.

Good book isn't it popsycal- I reckon every teacher should read it.

Oh and what we know as attachement parenting is often practised by most of the rest of the world and heaven knows there are billions of spoilt brats every where you look in the world because of it.

:sarcasticsmiliefacehere