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Parenting without punishments/rewards support thread

255 replies

BertieBotts · 15/07/2012 22:45

Come on, it's about time we had a new one of these Grin Whatever label you want to stick on it, unconditional parenting, gentle discipline, or just avoiding carrot or stick methods as much as possible in favour of a more co-operative approach, it works. (Personally I don't like the gentle label because I think that it's perfectly possible to be as firm as you like using these kinds of methods and "gentle" implies wishy-washiness.)

Not intended to be a debate thread, but a support/questions thread. Curiosity welcomed, outright "My way is better" posts not.

I promised a while ago I'd write up the basic principles that I try to stick to so hopefully this will help as a starting point as well as a reference.

1. Punishments are not always bad.
Sounds totally non intuitive, I know considering the thread title. The point is that punishment for punishment's sake is what's bad, or counterproductive, at least, but you shouldn't be afraid to do something which might upset your child if it's necessary to the situation. Try to ask yourself before you impose something:

  • Is this helping the immediate situation, or physically preventing the situation from reoccurring?
  • Is this helping my DC learn what's actually wrong with what they did?
  • Is this helping make things right? (NOT in an eye-for-an-eye way!)
  • Is this just to make me feel better?
  • Is there an alternative which would achieve the same goal with less bad feeling?

2. Don't take it personally.
When your child is playing up, it's not because they are out to get you, and it's probably not a power battle, despite what all the expert opinions seem to be. They are reacting in the way they are reacting because that is the best way they know to deal with that situation, whatever it might be.

Even if they've done something deliberately hurtful or spiteful, look for the reason behind that - it's more likely to be a misguided attempt to express an emotion, e.g. anger, jealousy, upset, and it's possible to convey "Actually, that isn't acceptable" at the same time as dealing with the feeling behind the actions - in fact it's often more important to deal with the feeling first and the action later, especially if you're feeling you want them to suffer, "pay" or feel bad for what they've done. You can't induce guilt by punishing, it's more likely to induce resentment.

3. Show them what you want.
Both at crisis point and in everyday life, so, again, something often considered a punishment e.g. time out can work well here as long as you aren't threatening it or attaching negative connotations to it - just showing them "You are angry/excited/silly/winding each other up and I need you to take a breather" until they can do that for themselves.

In everyday life - model the behaviour that you want. If you slip into something you don't want them to model, like shouting, apologise as soon as you realise even if it's after the fact. Respond if they ask you to stop shouting, and own it, don't make them responsible for it (by saying things like "If you'd just listen, I wouldn't have to shout". Grown ups screw up too, and they need to see you deal with that graciously if they are to learn to do the same.

Listen to their requests and acknowledge them (which doesn't mean agree) if you want them to listen to you, don't belittle their feelings if you want them to be empathetic, say please and thank you and sorry. Negotiate but be firm.

4. Be specific with instructions or praise.
Linking back to the UP theory that rewards/praise can be harmful, especially if they are too non specific, try to steer clear of "stock praise" like good girl/boy, well done, etc. It's fairly easy once you get into the habit of it - I tend to use "Thank you for..." instead of "good boy" and "That's right" or some kind of comment about whatever it is DS is telling/showing me rather than just "Well done".

With instructions it's similar - you can start even when they're tiny, not just saying "No" but "careful" or "hot" or "Don't touch" and when they get a bit older trying to stick to the positive instruction like "Stay on the pavement" rather than "Don't go on the road" - it's also more instructive since not being on the road could mean the kerb is okay, or the grass, or that little low wall (which might actually be okay but you can negotiate easier if you're starting from a position of nowhere but the pavement.) I suppose points 3 and 4 are linked. So again, focus on what you want rather than what you don't want. It can also help especially with toddlers to instruct in advance/tell them what to expect, e.g. saying a few minutes before you get to a busy road that when you get there, they will need to go in the pushchair.

5. Look past the immediate behaviour.
Why are they behaving in this way? Immediate points to consider:

  • Are they tired, hungry, hot or hormonal?
  • Are you any of the above and so over-reacting?
  • Is there anything else going on, even if it seems unrelated, that might be worrying them?
  • Are you assuming adult priorities onto a child who might find something more important or more scary than you do?
  • Have they got this behaviour from somewhere else?
  • Are your expectations too high?

None of these are a total excuse but should shape the way you deal with things. It's also why things like reward charts etc aren't always helpful because they don't address why something isn't happening in the first place.

(Sorry this is so long Blush)

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BertieBotts · 02/08/2012 14:17

Comeon can he stand up yet? I used to just change DS standing up holding on to something. For poos, I put him in the bath holding on to the side, took the nappy off and literally hosed him down with the shower head. He loved it!

Pull ups work like normal nappies and are easiest to change standing up, but you can change normal ones standing up too, takes some practice. Start with pull ups.

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BertieBotts · 02/08/2012 14:37

When he progressed to being afraid of the shower I did resort to pinning, though. It was awful :(

Also notice how I'm not commenting on any of the potty training posts. I'm not sure how I did it or what even happened but I just remember it was awful, horribly stressful and frustrating. I'm kind of hoping with any future DC I can just somehow avoid it altogether! I've noticed sort of a theme with DS that he will be able to do something, but he thinks he can't, or still needs reassurance for a long time afterwards. He too three steps unaided at 11 months, but then didn't walk until he was 16 months. The current one is sleeping alone - I've found he now messes around too much if I'm there and falls asleep perfectly fine without me, but he cries when I leave unless I tell him I'm coming back so I often say I'm going to the toilet and then take a really long time.

littlebluechair I agree with what wilde says about emphasising turn taking rather than sharing as he'll probably find sharing harder to understand, and possibly also that toys are for everyone if he understands that. And possibly just avoiding big group activities for a while if there's likely to be a lot of toy competition, stick to smaller gatherings of one or two, or try to choose more structured activities like messy play or craft things or sport type things where each child is given their own ball, piece of paper, paintbrush, etc.

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littlebluechair · 02/08/2012 16:07

Bertie I am thinking I am going to seriously rethink my summer's activities after today Sad. Poor DS is just getting so upset, I think it over faces him. It is a very recent thing, he plays so happily at our regular toddler groups but I think the summer activities feel very different to him, busier, more mixed ages. So I am going to try to scale back a bit. He shares/takes turns fine at home, so I am going to just leave it for these four weeks. It's a shame for me though - I like seeing everyone!

I posted in chat though about how to settle toddler disputes without offending other mum, we have encountered a problem with one specific girl and I am also going to try to avoid this a bit Sad.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

BertieBotts · 02/08/2012 16:14

Are they friends you could meet up with outside of those activities? I'm sure they'd understand. Mixed ages can be really hard at certain times, they seem to get better and worse at coping with them.

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littlebluechair · 02/08/2012 16:20

Yes, I see lots of people, I;m just being a child really - I like being in on the action! Sometimes I struggle with being the grown up Grin and passing on social events because, you know, they're not really social events they are child entertainment events which won't leave my poor child in a happy place!!

BertieBotts · 02/08/2012 16:29

Oh no I know exactly what you mean! There's always next year for the summer activities, we might actually have a summer then, too Grin

I meant could you meet these particular friends another time, if that wasn't clear.

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littlebluechair · 02/08/2012 16:34

Yes, I can invite to my house or whatever, I will just avoid the massive play days and similar.

I think this is one of the hardest aspects of parenting - the give and take - sometimes the kids have to do what has to be done and other times I have to accept they don't want to do what I thought would be fun - in this case bouncy castles.

GauchitaOlimpica · 02/08/2012 16:45

Hello all... lots to catch up!

Re. sharing, I found that particular aspect one of the trickiest ones. It's such a difficult concept to explain to a young child! What we do these days at home (DD 3y1m and DS 11m) when they're playing is: if DS wants something DD is playing with (that's usually the case) then I ask DD not to snatch it back, as DS is only now starting to learn to share, and to please get something else he might like to play with.

It usually works, unless tiredness gets in the middle and then tears ensure without a doubt Grin

If it's the other way around, DS has something and DD suddenly "realised" she wanted to play with it, I ask her to wait a little bit for her turn. She's now starting to understand that better and usually waits.

Bertie, how are things with DS re. "blaming" the cat?

SilverSky · 02/08/2012 17:26

..

wilderumpus · 03/08/2012 17:16

oooh I did some non-rewardy potty training today a la UP :) I have decided to sit back completely from potty training and let DS take the lead and so he has had 1.5 days without any accidents or crossness :) And this morning he went in the potty and came to tell me and instead of saying 'well done!' and clapping like I normally do, I asked him if he was pleased, and he said 'yes, I am!' and I really understood UP right then. It meant a lot to him and he felt the pleasure and also, I think, felt quite grown up.

little I also have had an issue of how to deal with my friend when her toddler is being unpleasant to mine! nightmare. And I had to take DS away from mixed age playgroups because he just found the snatching and pushing too overwhelming! with his own childminder group he gets on fine because they all know the rules, and so does he, but in a random group of kids it all gets a bit, ahem, feral Grin he is a total softy and rather a stickler for how things should be! I found I couldn't chat to my friends anyway because I was so on edge.

GoodButNoMedals · 03/08/2012 21:37

comeon I found nappy changing a real battle and it's one that just has to be done. I remember doing a LOT of singing, distracting, tickling, etc at that age (for a while she started doing the actions to twinkle twinkle whenever she saw the changing mat) and often resorted to just having to pin her down to do it. Once she was standing then I did what Bertie suggested and changed her standing up.

littlebluechair I'm having the same issue with dd2 (2y5m) about not wanting to go to big activity days where she's expected to interact with other children (she's incredibly shy and refuses to talk to people she doesn't know very well). We've stopped trying to go to these things. I'm trying to make sure I explain to her about the toys being there for everyone to play with and other children need to have a turn. She definitely understands turn taking more than sharing, she quite happily lets a toy go if I say 'X's turn now, you can have another turn later' where if someone tells her to 'share with X' she won't let it go.

wilde well done with the UP potty training!! That's more or less what I'm doing, let dd2 take the lead. She hasn't had an accident since Sunday Grin She's even now had 4 dry nights too Shock I'm absolutely amazed at how quick and easy it's been when I've not done star charts or bribery like I did with dd1. I think it helps that she's been ready for a few months and it's been me keeping her in nappies rather than her wanting to stay in nappies. We started at the Easter holidays but you know what happened in our house at Easter, so we stopped completely and went back to nappies.

GoodButNoMedals · 03/08/2012 21:48

I forgot to talk about our current issue Blush.

Dd2 seems to be having a developmental spurt and has discovered imagination. This is mostly lovely with lots of role play, etc but she's seeing monsters now too :( The past few nights she's told me she can't go to bed because the zombies will come and get her (blame dp for filling her head with zombies Angry), the ghosts were coming at lunchtime, there was a monster in the toilet who would eat her if I dropped her in, there's a tiger in my bedroom that we need to run away from, she's having nightmares and needing to come into our bed in the middle of the night but she's terrified of the dark (never a problem before).

So, any thoughts from you lovely ladies about how I can help her sort out these fears? So far I'm just going with them and reassuring her that I won't let them get her. I told her the safest place from zombies is in bed asleep Blush, we shooed the tiger away, flushed the toilet monster down the drain, etc. DO you think that's an ok way of dealing with it or am I feeding her fears by doing things like that?

I have no experience of this as dd1's imagination at that age brought us an imaginary cat that liked dry shreddies in a bowl (dd1's favourite snack), an imaginary friend called Normalade who liked to sing songs and play games (and was a useful scapegoat for any wrongdoing), and Harry Potter living in the attic above dd1's bedroom.

wilderumpus · 03/08/2012 22:03

oooh good we had this a couple of months ago! i was making the huge mistake of saying monsters don't exist Blush which is the worst thing to do apparently, so no you aren't feeding her fears.

DS watches 'tree fu tom' so we made a magic spell to make at bedtime to make the mosters go away... We look like right idiots doing the 'magic'. He also has a nightlight on the landing which he didn't use to need (as bright light would keep him awake!). My friend also suggested tapping his eyelids before he went to bed and saying it was special fairy dust to keep the monsters away and give him good dreams, and then we would talk about what he might dream about (being fireman sam etc!). It really worked. Me and DH also made up silly monsters and put them on his wall, friendly monsters so DS could feel they would look after him. And we would reiterate every time he woke up how safe he was with me and DH looking after him, and how it was our job as his mum and dad to look after him and keep monsters away.

really helped and now a couple of months down the line he is fine again :) It is a worrying time!

other suggestions from friends were one of those dream catcher things to catch monsters and wands and spells and most of all, taking it VERY seriously.

hth?

btw DD1 sounds sounds funny :)

naturalbaby · 03/08/2012 22:44

My 'baby' seems to be just coming out of the wriggling/nightmare nappy changes , he needs a lot of warning about what's going to happen and a really good toy. If I communicate properly with him then it goes much better but most nappy changes are still a battle!

I'm not sure how or what I read exactly about sharing but I've picked up an idea that it's better not to force kids to share - their own toys though, little it sounds like your issue is over toddler group toys? but still, if your child had the toy first then he doesn't have to share straight away does he? We've had a lot of sharing battles between my 3 boys and I get mine to find a toy to swap, ask nicely, wait while the other child thinks about it and they usually do swap after they've turned their back and thought about it. It's very frustrating for the child waiting though!
I was/am the same about not wanting to miss out on baby/toddler activities to socialise with other mums and have often made life more difficult for myself and my ds's for the sake of an extra bit of socialising!

My 3yr old has a mad imagination and he had issues over the bogey monster off a cough/cold remedy t.v advert! I used his imagination to make it a positive situation - we've got cats that roam the house at night keeping the monsters away, he's got bunny and mouse on his bed that look after him and all the doors and windows were locked (this was when it was winter!) so there was no way monsters could get in. We also found a few good books at the library and laughed about the silly/funny monsters. He spends all day doing tree fu magic!

GoodButNoMedals · 03/08/2012 22:56

I'm glad you think I'm doing the right thing with taking her fears seriously. I feel a bit ridiculous shooing away an imaginary tiger from my bed while still half asleep and not dressed yet. We're off to the zoo tomorrow so I might let her choose an animal toy to look after her as she sleeps. I'm hoping this is a short phase as it's rather wearing atm as she's perfectly fine one minute then the next she's scared out of her wits and clinging to me sobbing :(

wilde dd1 was incredibly funny as a small child. She's slightly less funny now she's hormonal and teenagery.

BertieBotts · 04/08/2012 02:32

I did the scaring away of monsters too, we had different animals visiting our house, crocodiles mostly! Mainly because I have a really strong memory of my dad doing this for me and the absolute trust I had in him and how this made me feel supported, safe and like he took me/us seriously.

When adults said "There's nothing there, you're just being silly" or did the whole showing me there was nothing under the bed etc a part of me wanted to believe them but a part of me thought but what if I am right and I did see a snake/it's wriggled out somewhere and gone into a corner/it can make itself invisible etc and carried on worrying, but I felt I wasn't allowed to express this fear even though it was very real to me!

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k2togm1 · 04/08/2012 21:59

Oooh can I join? Ds is 16 months and I read simplicity parenting some months ago and loved it. Have read most of this thread too but not allBlush
comeon ds was the same for nappy changes, and it doesn't get any better! Pull ups are the answer for me now that pinning down feels like abuse and songs/toys/tickles don't work. Although I do feel bad as wanted to use reusables but putting a nippanippa standing up is actually dangerous!

catdoctor · 04/08/2012 22:11

Hello, I'm finding this thread really interesting - sorry, I also havn't read all of it so sorry if I'm repeating a question.
wilde I read somewhere about having a water spray with something added like lavender, marked 'Monster scaring spray' and liberally using this around room at bedtime.

My questions are about the praising side of things - the negatives I've got a handle on - DS is 2 now and the simple choices of 2 options, validating emotions, giving time warnings all seem (currently!) to be helping avoid major breakdowns.

But, what's the issue with (appropriate) praising -
I think someone early on in this thread was talking about art-work and not overdoing the praise - but surely simple painting, not hurling your toys, coming in from the garden etc at 2 are actually quite big achievements and worthy o note - at 6 or whenever, they are to be expected. Can someone fill me in on the theory here?

ClimbingPenguin · 04/08/2012 23:04

have skimmed read and really just marking place.

we have certain rules about toys and sharing. like others the language is more about turns unless we mean for more than person to use the item at the same time.

I started turn taking with DD early on, just when drinking my glass of water. 'DD's turn, mummy's turn'. So I think that helped with terminology being understood as that was from about 9 months. At playgroups is where most of them came from, so no snatching out of people's hands, but if they put it down then she can pick it up and also starting is the concept of asking. We have neighbours DD's age which has been great here as they are always wanting each others things when playing outside. They all know they can say no, but often say you can do one then carry on with your bike/activity which seems to satisfy all parties. e.g. DD doesn't have a bell on her bike so neighbours let her ping their bell once and that's it. Anyway my point is as DS is getting older and mobile we have extended these rules. So if she puts something down on the floor next to him, then we explain that is fair game to him as she benefits from the same rules (obviously said in toddler terms). Same if she offers something to him, then she should give it to him or not do it as it is not fair. If she doesn't want it then we explain that she can put in certain places etc or move away. Not sure how this will work as he really starts going for stuff rather than being distracted, but I hope to do it in a way that protects her. Anything that is hers I try to let her have autonomy over and tell her how she can keep that if others are wanting i.e. 9 month old brother. Although a lot of the toys at home are home toys rather than hers or his, with some exceptions.

bloody hell that is waffly. too late for me really

DCs have done a couple of afternoons at nursery and some phrases have come into the household, plus after the last IL visit DD has been talking a lot pretty things e.g. putting a hairband on the her head and saying it is pretty. I have used this phrase before, but only in terms of flowers outside etc. not in a personal way. She saw her cousin hit something and call it bad two, maybe three times and three months later still does it. I sometimes attempt to find out what she means by it, am trying not to attach feelings to it for her catch onto, just say we don't hit things most of the time to ignore the 'bad' comment. Bloody outside interference's Grin

SilverSky · 04/08/2012 23:39

Certainly an interesting thread and I am very curious to learn more.

Ds1 is 21mths and recently became a big brother which I am sure is having an impact on his behaviour.

How do you handle a situation such as ds1 pulling the cat backwards by its tail? I told him it wasn't very nice for the cat and to stop it. His response was to give the cat three hard tugs on his tail. Luckily the cat looked hacked off but didn't have a pop and I wouldn't have blamed the cat if it did!

BertieBotts · 04/08/2012 23:41

k2 reusables with poppers are very easy to do standing up, if that's any use to you!

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k2togm1 · 06/08/2012 08:22

bertiebots I was particularly strapped for cash at the time of buying nappies so ended up with mostly terries and only a few shaped two part onesSad

Has there already been a conversation about the best books on UP or gentle discipline?

wilderumpus · 06/08/2012 11:06

silver I had some good advice in this here thread about how to deal with my toddler and the cat. what worked for me was taking DS away from the cat if he looked like he might pounce, not reacting to when he did (thereby avoiding giving him negative attention), and repeating that it hurts the cat. TBH the cat wouldn't really distance herself from DS so was a sitting duck, gave DS a swipe once and really they sorted their own relationship out. I fgured my cat is not stupid and wouldn't keep going up to DS if she felt threatened. In the end DS just got over it.

climbing my DS comes back from DGMs saying 'naughty' and 'no' a lot. . I only use naughty to DS in a joking, ogre like way, chasing him and saying what a very naughty boy he is, he thinks it is hilarious because, of course, there is no such thing as a 'naughty boy'. and we don't say 'no' often either, especially without explanation of why. But DGM is old school and VERY worried all the time, over disciplines (which led to my DH being a holy horror as a toddler!). He has been at DGMs for a few days so wonder what I will get back... eek!

spiderlight · 06/08/2012 14:12

Hello - haven't read back fully yet, just nabbing myself a comfy seat :)

BertieBotts · 06/08/2012 14:25

Yes I think there have been a few posts about books, if you click on "show all messages" it will take the pages out (temporarily) and then you can press Ctrl and F and it brings up a little search box. If you type "book" it should then come up with all the times books have been mentioned on the thread. Unless anyone feels like recommending anything new?

catdoctor I don't know, I suppose you could say something in a factual way which highlighted that you recognised it was a big deal for them, without making a big deal out of it. If that makes sense. I think the praise issue in general has been the most contentious - not everyone who follows "gentle" discipline follows theory on this to the letter. I tend to stick to a loose rule of that if it's something I would naturally say - like I might tell DS I'm proud of him, or thanks for helping or whatever, but not to use the praise specifically as a reward or to use hope of praise as a positive behaviour management tool.

I've just noticed it's suddenly got sunny and it's supposed to rain from three, so I will be back later but I think this would be a good time for an impromptu park trip!

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