OK atheist parents - how do you deal with The God Thing?

[Bibulus]

DH and I aren't believers but we don't make a big thing out of it. We made the decision early on to be as neutral as possible in the way we talked about religion with DD, i.e. 'some people believe this, some believe that....'

She prays at school, she knows all about baby Jesus and his mother Mary, although she's probably a bit sketchy on the details of it all and has barely ever set foot in a religious building.

Anyway, this evening she asked to visit the local churchyard, so we had a little walk around, and she was asking lots of questions about the people buried there, why people brought flowers to them etc. Then she wanted to go into the church, and it was open so we poked our head in.

DD was spellbound by it - she said breathlessly, 'why is it so pretty in here mummy?' and asked a million questions about how you talk to god, what does heaven look like, who are the pretty ladies with wings on the wall.....! Then we got collared by the vicar, who was very pleasant and sweet to her and showed her round the church which enchanted her even more.

Am now regretting taking her in there a bit! I didn't want to ruin it for her so I haven't said anything to undermine the idea of god or praying or heaven. Now she is sitting next to me on the sofa practising praying. DH will do his nut!

So anyway, I'm interested to hear how other non-Christian, non-believing parents handle all this stuff?

...so we'd need to define the term 'morality' to have the discussion, which in itself could be quite a disucssion!

That's a good really point, Lottiegb

There is currently a fund for the restoration of the cathedral spire in my nearest city.

I shoved a tenner in the box, not because it is important to me as a place of worship, or because I recognise its importance to others as a place of worship, but because it's a nice old building. Not very nice and not especially old, to be honest.

For Noobydoo, if it were her place of worship, she would value the contribution of all the ladies who are actively baking to raise funds for the spire more highly than that of the atheist who shoves a tenner in the box. And of course the effort involved in baking for the spire is greater, but the value of the spire is relative.

"Lets hope your children get a better education from school than from you Maybe then they might have a chance of being abit more open-minded"

Open-minded like yourself? Believing wholeheartedly at 2000 year old stories, then feeling sorry for those of us who dare bring our children up differently than your way?

I do think it's interesting that it's OK for parents with faith to bring their children up in their faith, but atheists are supposed to keep quiet about their atheism so their children can make up their own minds.

I agree seeker, I've always struggled with that. Have been told many times by Christians that I shouldn't 'force' my children to be atheists, while they trot off to church with offspring in tow and seemingly unable to see the irony .

sieglinde - re "Interesting that some of the posts claim faith in human nature while others worry terribly that children in particular will be brainwashed if 'instructed'."

The two are not mutually exclusive. I do believe that there is goodness in people and I am worried about absolute and one-sided religious education in school. Children are naive & trusting. As a result, they truly believe things that adults in position of authority (parents, teachers) tell them as "truth". This is not a controversial statement, I would think.

"And yet you aren't at all worried about the opposite - atheist 'brainwashing' "

Have you read this thread? The atheists here are NOT telling their DC "there is no God, don't believe any of that crap".

"because - in a manner that reminds me scarily of some nuns - some of you are so sure you are right. So frighteningly sure. "

All I am sure of, at this point, is that you are either high or have come off reading some other thread.

Very good point, seeker.

entropygirl - re "If you do not artificially expose children to religion then those that find it later will have a wonderful journey of discovery. If you do artificially expose children to religion then those that find they do not possess religious belief will sometimes feel like they are flawed or guilty of something terrible. It seems to me that the first of those options is the better tbh."

Are you saying atheist parents would do better to expose their DC to religion a little bit, so as to inoculate them against it?

Interesting. Thank you for this insight.

Personally, I want my children to learn about all faiths and none. I approve of RE in schools, but not the practice of religion.

I tell my children that dp and I are atheists and what that means. I also tell them that I think that I am right, and why I think I am right. However, I do tell them that other people do not think the same way, and that we have to be polite about their beliefs. And that if they (the dcs) decide that they don't want to be atheists when they are older they of course don't have to be. But I am not going to give them weasel words about it.

cote erm that isnt at all what I was saying - but now I wish I had....

I just meant that you do more damage to a child by bringing them up within a religion when they have no belief than by bringing them up atheist when they do have belief.

But there may be something in getting in early with some innoculation. Although hefty training in scientific method and empiricism isn't atheism but may well lead to it also.

But a child wouldn't congenitally have belief unless parents expose her to religion.

If you want any child to understand the wider world then a good knowledge of religion is essential.

You can't understand American politics and especially some aspects of foreign policy without knowing about the huge influence of politicans believing in Rapture.
If you want to go on holiday to a Muslim or Catholic country then understandings modesty dress-codes is crucial to ensure you don't offend (think HSBC adverts too).
Understanding Jehovah's Witness afterlife beliefs make their refusal of blood transfusion clearer.
If you want to understand the Twilight books/films then knowledge about Mormonism really helps; might be useful for the upcoming US election too!
I could go on...

More people in the world are religious, than are not, and every country's culture has a basis in their religion/s; more often as much ritual as belief. There are over 170 religions practiced in this country alone and to understand this country properly, it is important to know about the Church of England's historic relationship with the Parliamant and Monarch.

Regardless of whether a child is brought up with a belief or not, knowing something about the multiplicty of religions around the world is really important.

Nobody is saying DC should never learn about religion(s), just that there is no need to do it at early ages. After all, they won't be learning about Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses, read Twilight, or learn about the wars of the European continent at age 5 or even 7.

Why do people assume that atheist parents don't want their children to have RE lessons? I have never met a single one that said this. The only children know who don't go to RE lessons are those from some particularly extreme Christian sects.

I agree that RE lessons are very important. DD was a bit cynical about their usefulness but she finds it really interesting now. They're probably more useful than history lessons in terms of understanding the world. I encouraged her to pick it for a GCSE option.

It's more interesting from an academic/sociological perspective rather than from one of belief of course. How do believers (of whatever faith) cope with RE lessons? Do they sit there going "Well they're wrong" or do they approach it with curiosity?

Bibulus my DH would have an absolute canary - as you mentioned yours would - if this happened with our DD!

My DH is a staunch atheist; I think amongst his heroes are Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins, to give context. I consider myself to be a pantheist: I believe there is something, but it's nothing like what organised religion teaches us.

Anyway, our DD has had about 0% exposure to religion so far (she's 3.4yo), aside from my Buddha statues in the garden. She starts nursery at a school in September which gets funding from the parish council here, so Christian values will be promoted. It's a lovely school and I want her to go, but I'm uneasy about the Christian ethos and the 'this is what we think' inclusivity. Other religious philosophies will be introduces, but Christianity will be the base IYSWIM.

This 'ethos' so much my problem as there's nothing wrong with promoting kindness, tolerance, respect, etc. But aren't they just BASIC values, as in, what every good person knows/wants to do? Why mix it with Christianity to make it seem like all those things come from The Bible?

Our daughter (and eventually DD2) will learn about Christianity at their school and I do feel strange knowing that they'll have prayer in assembly; say a prayer before food thanking the Lord for the fact that they are fortunate enough to have food. But it's like what my DH says - what about those who don't have food? Why isn't God looking after them? And that's where the problems come in. Hubby loathes the idea but I think he's relented somewhat as there are other factors about the school which are great.

The problem is that my DH is usually right about things, and I'm worried that the things that worry him about the school i.e the filtering in of Christianity, will work their way into her spongey, easily-influenced infant brain.

Like you, we will go with 'well, this is what some think ...' The idea of Heaven, for example, is a very comforting thing for children. I know that when my own Grandmother died when I was 5yo, being told that she'd gone to Heaven made it easier for me to understand. I never 'got' the whole Religion thing. I became interested in Buddhism when I was about 18 but even then I knew that living in a capitalist society would make it difficult to follow it to the letter.

I'm digressing! Basically, we will see how our DD fares at nursery. I'm hoping that they'll go easy on religion and won't be trying to spoon-feed Christianity to her and her peers. A balance of world religions would be better without the 'we' and 'them' schtick. If it doesn't work out for our family and we find the religious focus to be too much, DH and I will have no hesitation moving her to a school with no religious inclination.

Cote I'm no expert because DD is only two and this hasn't come up yet but don't these things come up sooner than you think? I can remember trying to figure out who believed what and where Father Christmas fitted in with God, Allah and the Tooth Fairy from as early as my infant school. Mum was RC and so were we, Dad was and is a Quaker and the school was Church of Scotland and trying to remember who believed what and where was a real puzzle. And I'm sure we covered WWII including the Holocasut in outline in a school project in Primary3 when I'd have been 7.

DH and I are atheists but for us the most important thing is DD's perspective. We want her to grow up feeling safe and secure in the knowledge that the people around who her believe lots of different things all believe that it is important to love and be kind to each other first. That doesn't mean pretending we believe the same things as Granny or Granny or Grandad or Grandad (who inconveniently all belong to different denominations anyway) just that we can all still agree about loving her and each other anyway. Disagreeing is something she'll just have to get used to. And DH and I have agreed that if they want to teach her to pray, or recite the catechism, or even to sit still then they can be our guests. After all it never did us any harm.

Well, DD is almost 7 and it hasn't come up yet. Then again, we are not in the UK.

DD's best friend is from a religious family (I am friends with the parents, too). She goes to Sunday school, etc. I think it was last year that DD came home and said they had a little debate with this other girl about how humanity came into being. In DD's own words:

"Mummy, G said there was only one mummy and one daddy in the beginning, and they had lots of children, then they had children, and that's how we all came into being. I said no, that's not right. I said first there were fish, then there were crocodiles, then there were monkeys, and then people came."

Still, there was no mention of God or religion.

Tooth fairy?
Santa?
Shoemaker's elves?
Flying Valkyries?
Thunder bolt throwing guy who lives up a mountain?
Winged flying horse?
The Other Mother, with the button eyes?
Zombie Jewish person?
Pregnant virgin?
Beardie old guy in the sky?
Poison drinking blue guy?

It's all good when you're seven

And if she still believes in half of it when she's older, brilliant: it will do her creativity no end of good, either that or freak her out altogether!

Isn't it amazing how children have this innate sense of God. It seems so natural for them.

What "innate sense of God"?

Have you read the thread? We are talking about how DC don't have an y such thing until they start hearing about it from school, family, etc.

Children don't have an innst sense of God. They no more have an innate sense of God as they do any other myth that they have been taught about from babyhood!

DS1 (5): "Mummy, I love God. And Thor and dragons too. But the Easter Bunny scares me." As an ex-Catholic aethiest, I'm quite happy with this level of conversation.

A bit uncomfortable about the local vicar coming into school but happy to then keep conversation mixed about other beliefs (including my own belief that we all have to look after each other and the world around us and then that's it).

Very interesting conversation after we watched Brother Bear, about all the idea of creatures having spirits, I think so long as he pays more attention to people and life around him rather than following what an organised religion says (and praying more than doing) then I'll be happy.

I have never known DCs have 'an innate sense of God'?
They get fascinated when they start school- it is quite exciting if it is new to them. So would anything else.

Sorry - not sure how I ended up with a question mark.