OK atheist parents - how do you deal with The God Thing?

[Bibulus]

DH and I aren't believers but we don't make a big thing out of it. We made the decision early on to be as neutral as possible in the way we talked about religion with DD, i.e. 'some people believe this, some believe that....'

She prays at school, she knows all about baby Jesus and his mother Mary, although she's probably a bit sketchy on the details of it all and has barely ever set foot in a religious building.

Anyway, this evening she asked to visit the local churchyard, so we had a little walk around, and she was asking lots of questions about the people buried there, why people brought flowers to them etc. Then she wanted to go into the church, and it was open so we poked our head in.

DD was spellbound by it - she said breathlessly, 'why is it so pretty in here mummy?' and asked a million questions about how you talk to god, what does heaven look like, who are the pretty ladies with wings on the wall.....! Then we got collared by the vicar, who was very pleasant and sweet to her and showed her round the church which enchanted her even more.

Am now regretting taking her in there a bit! I didn't want to ruin it for her so I haven't said anything to undermine the idea of god or praying or heaven. Now she is sitting next to me on the sofa practising praying. DH will do his nut!

So anyway, I'm interested to hear how other non-Christian, non-believing parents handle all this stuff?

I'm not saying Christians shouldn't take their children to church or talk to them about their beliefs or live a Christian life. Each family must do what is best for them. I understand wanting to teach your children about something that is so important to you. I am saying that it should not be forced on them and that they should have a balanced view and know they can ultimately make up their own minds.

The teaching in schools should be more a cultural, historical thing. If you have no knowlege of religion it would be impossible to decide if it has any relevance to you.

For me the spiritual awareness came first and christianity just slotted into place. There was no pressure either way from my parents.

"In the same way atheists 'indoctrinate' their children by not going to church and never mentioning god except in a "some people believe" scenario!"

Not going to church and not mentioning God is indoctrination, now, is it?

i really don't see indoctrination, as i have never told (and never plan to say) 'there is no God'

or indeed place God in the same category as, say, dragons, mermaids etc (though if they do this themselves....that's up to them...)

i can't wait until she forms her own opinion and is able to articulate it though...i bloody love a good argument.

Me, too. I wish religious people could argue a bit better. Mostly, all we get is "It's real because I say so" or "Waaah, you should respect my faith!".

Not telling someone about something is not the same as indoctrination.

I do not believe in God nor do I support the Monarchy. I do not tell my pupils God does not exist, not do I say what I think of the institution of the Monarchy.

If I was to indoctrinate them, I would tell them God does not exist. If asked, I would say some people believe in God. At the age I teach, I can keep my personal beliefs out of it but if I taught older children, I think it would be good to encourage a fair class debate. I'm not sure if I would say what I believe.

I know an RE teacher who was fired because of her views on Islam. Which she expressed to the pupils.

I don't think that saying Muslims believe X, Christians believe Y and Atheists don't believe in anything is giving children a choice.

It would be like saying that Handglider enthusiasts like handgliding, stamp collectors like stamps and people who do neither like nothing at all. Clearly people who do neither do like things, just a wide range of disparate things that don't unite them as a group, and the same is true of atheists.

So if you are religious and giving children a genuine choice, think about the three things covered:

morality
mythic structure
sprituality

These are things that are not just part of being religious; they are part of being a human being. And if you're not explaining examples of ways that atheists make moral decisions, or incorporate mythic structures or experience the world in a way that isn't just about material reality, you are not giving those children a choice. You're actually teaching them that human experiences are the preserve of people who believe in God or some other supernatural power, and for them to reject that God is then going to be frightening and difficult, because they would be rejecting what it means to be human.

Children don't all have innate experiences of God; they have innate experiences of being part of humanity and connected both subjectively and objectively to the world. To pretend that is innately supernatural for everyone shows a lack of empathy for other people.

Cote, I'm an atheist . My use of the word indoctrination was deliberately put in speech marks to imply a level of cynicism. I don't for one minute think it's indoctrination, as this is exactly what I intend to do, I was merely balancing the argument so I was not accused of double standards by Christians who are 'indoctrinating' their children by trotting off to church every Sunday.

Keep up!

Those of you who are happy to peddle Christian (or any other) myths to your DC: what do you do about the nasty bits? How do you handle them yourselves, for that matter?
From my point of view it's a load of old cock that was made up as a means of social control anyway, so it doesn't actually matter which bits you pick and choose to stick to, but what are you doing about the racism and misogyny and homophobia and those little alarming bits and bobs about dismembering your DC or handing them over to rapists?

surprisingly - Sorry, that wasnt clear at all, especially you also put religious families' and religis schools' indoctrination in quotes, too:

" most religious parents 'indoctrinate' their children with their beliefs by attending church, talking about god and sending their children to religious schools..."

SGB - Since they are not answering (2nd time you ask this), I will:

They say those stories are not to be taken literally.

Sorry Cote, was trying to be too even-handed - don't know why I bothered given the bias that we all feel in these debates !

It is funny how it's always the rational people who are supposed to apologize for not being weird and deluded, and to tiptoe round other people's bullshit superstitions. No one says to the parents bringing up their DC to believe that homosexuality is wrong because our imaginary friend says so: oh wait, not everyone believes that, you mustn't indoctrinate your DC, you have to tell them that there are loads of different viewpoints.

It's not bias, though.

Teaching unevidenced stories as fact to small children who can't research and reason for themselves is indoctrination, by definition.

Not teach such stories cannot possibly be called indoctrination, again, by definition.

One is, the other isn't. I don't understand this wish to present both sides of everything as equal.

Cote, we are arguing from a position of agreement - it was a question of semantics and I'm not really sure why you keep hammering the point.

If I was being totally honest (which I am to my atheist friends) I do think religion is an unbelievable load of superstitious bullshit. It surprises, disappoints and saddens me that a number of my otherwise highly intelligent friends believe in these fairy stories and hence express views that I find repugnant. I am stunned that they don't understand that all this crap was made up at a time when science was not even in its infancy and could not explain why the sun rose, babies were born and that thunder was nature not an act of god.

Do I express this to my Christian friends? No of course I don't. What on earth would be served by that? If they express homophobic or misogynist opinions then I challenge those directly but I otherwise don't enter into debate about their fairy stories largely because I won't change their mind and I find it all too ridiculous to waste my energies on.

Is that acceptable to you?

Hi, Pirate. Could you lay off the term fairy story? I know it's been sanctified by Our Ignorant Leader, but I love fairy stories and I won't hear a word against them.

back at Pirate.

My Big Problem with Dawkins is his use of silly terminology. Maybe someone could enrol him in a liberal arts college and bring him up to speed?

Which terminology do you object to, sieglinde?

SGB most Lutherans (which I am) are taught that some things in the Bible are not relevant to the way we live today. Hence the handing your children over to rapists. We are told to look at who was writing the story down, at what point in history, and at what culture he/she belonged to.

Out of interest, if you are an atheist (and I have no problem if you are), why would you choose to send your child/ren to a church school?

"Out of interest, if you are an atheist (and I have no problem if you are), why would you choose to send your child/ren to a church school?"

There are two answers to this one. 1. Some people have no choice- catchment areas force the decision.

Or 2. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean that you aren't also a hypocrite!

or 3. Because the non church schools are crap.

vashti that's a really interesting point. I have tended to the opposite approach 'just because you believe something doesn't mean everyone else has to have an equivalent belief system, we just get on with our lives without the superstitious framework.' the 'i spend as much time thinking about pink dolphins on mars as I do about god, as they are of equal relevance to my life' view.

This really confuses a lot of religious people who seem to think that because they have a 'god shaped hole' everyone must.

You are right though, that there is an 'equivalent human experience' gap in terms of the feelings and experiences often associated with religion, which are not actually about the core belief and of which everyone does have experience.

the church school question is a bit silly given that in many areas that is the only real choice, and so many primaries are 'church' - though of course really its only a tiny part of what goes on in school.