If it's been done before, I'm sorry - but please, could I start a support thread for dealing with my 4-year-old?

[Jacksmania]

I'm not being a very good mummy right now. I'm being an awful shouty mummy. :( It's making me feel horrible all the way to the bottom of my soul, and yet I can't seem to help it.

My four-year-old is the sweetest, funniest, cleverest thing in the whole world (moi, PFB? :o). I love him so much it makes my heart hurt sometimes.
And he's also four... which means he whines, cries, argues, and acts like a cheeky brat. I can cope with the cheekiness. But right now, I can't cope with the whining and crying. I don't know what I'm doing wrong - but how can such a cheerful, funny child have days when he starts every request with crying? This morning he hopped in the shower with me, and immediately started crying. "What's wrong??" "Mummy can you get my baaaaaaath toooooyyyyys" . Oh. My. God. Why can he not just ask?????? "Mummy can you please get my bath toys. " You bet, no problem.

Then it was folding his clothes out of the dryer. I made the horrendous mistake of folding his shorts and putting them away. Cue hysterical tears. "Whyyyyyyy can't I foooooooold my shoooooooorts..."
Repeat with every other nonsensical thing and half an hour later my blood pressure is through the roof because the default is to cry and whine and not simply ^ask".

WHAT am I doing wrong? Why can't he just ask???????????

And yet, half an hour later he can be a completely different child, happy and cheerful, and then back to crying over something stupid.

I am going round the bend. I really am.

We just came back from holiday, and while there, he had a massive strop because we couldn't go get another lemon cupcake because it was time to go to the airport.
I'm so ashamed of myself but I literally snapped. Something just went "ping" and I hurled my hairbrush on the floor (well away from him, on purpose - I had that much control) so hard it shattered. And I came close to doing the same this morning, with a cup of fruit salad, but got a hold of myself in time Thank fuck or there'd have been melon all over the ceiling.

I hate myself when I'm like this. I feel like I'm turning into my bloody father who had a scary temper when I was young. Don't know if he still does but that's a different story. I actually frightened myself with the rage I was feeling when he wouldn't stop whining and crying.
I am setting a shit example for him - I don't want him to turn out like me!!

I thought I saw a three-year-old support thread last year sometime, but didn't post on it - could I start a four-year-old support thread?
What am I doing wrong?
Please someone tell me, because I feel so shit right now, I hate being shouty and scary like this.

I have a 2nd born 4y 11m. She is a nightmare, her manipulation skills are 2nd to none!!

She is massively defiant, stroppy and demanding, rules the house!

I have broken 3 hairbrushes this year!

Jacks - Hi my friend x You are a great Mum. DS is 4 - better known as 'Fucking Four'. They are like Jeckyl & Hyde. I have lost count of the people I have heard having the same basic 'chat' with their child...'There is no need to cry/whine/whinge just ask nicely' for fucks sake.

I try to think of it as someone earlier said.... 'It's hard to have a 4 year old, it's harder still to be a 4 year old' BUT I am also very firm. I wont do anything until they 'ask nicely and stop fucking whinging' :) You just have to develop a certain 'detachment' from the crying/whining, just switch off from it and develop a raised eyebrow and just look at them until they stop.

I'm sure that's a crap explanation - I am shattered and on my way to bed.

Bottom line is - you are a good Mum. Hang in there - this too shall pass x

Thank you all for being so kind .
Just going home now (16:30 here). I'm sure he's having fun at home with Daddy and will be his sweet little self.
I'll update later/tomorrow.

Jacksmania I also could have written your post!

DS1 (4.3) manages to be needy and angry, insolent and loving all at the same time. He even threatened to move out yesterday over a bath toy 'debate' :)
He is a ball (or rather a string as v thin) of nervous energy and he wears me out. When he is at school (we are abroad and he started at 2.9) it is frankly a relief...

I try not to dwell on it, he can be fanstastic and lots of fun as well

My mantras are 'This too shall pass,' 'Remember you're an adult,' and 'X hours until bedtime...'

OP thank you for starting this thread, I love it! I have been worrying about this this week (crazy raging 3 days running now) and I feel really reassured

Mine is 3.6 but we have the cheekyness, whining, demanding and tearful over nothingness already.

I have also just read the 123 magic book and found it really good for tackling all those behaviours, it emphasises that DC need to learn and learn fast what behaviour is unacceptable, even whining or asking for something in a rude way can get a warning ("that's 1") from the parent. It also recommends not explaining everything too much or lecturing as they often do not listen anyway at that age.

But I think it is normal to lose it sometimes, we are only human and I think it is unrealistic to act calm all the time no matter what, sometimes they need to know that Mummy is getting cross (as long as it is not out of control).

Oh, the whiney voice! Hate, hate, hate it. DD eventually responded to my repeated insistence that I don't like the high pitched whiney voice and could she please say whatever she wanted to say in a normal voice. I seem to remember reading somewhere that you need to tell them what exactly is so infuriating about the voice as they don't understand "whiney" and why it's annoying.

One technique that works for us is pretending that smiling isn't allowed. This sounds crackers but it's really hard not to smile if someone tells you not to. Cue lots of pratting around pretending I can see her smiling. Once she's smiling it's hard not to be smiling myself. The opening line is usually something about it being National No Smiling Day. And definitely no giggling.

I have a broken hairbrush, too. I keep it to remind me about keeping control of my temper. It does get better - DD is 5 now and only resorts to this sort of thing when tired. Soooooo not looking forward to DS's turn...

I this one of my list of "lesser used mile stones" (I one wrote a blog about it). DD2 is 5.5 and is only just really stopping doing this, and still starts crying hysterically if she wants to report a crisis with one of her sisters, so much so that I can't hear what she is saying. I, like many of the others above, told/tell her to ask/say it again properly before I will respond. And before I give the impression that I say that in a calm and loving voice, that is often said more like FFS Flo, I refuse to deal with you until you behave normally" and other short tempered over tired motherly sentences.

Big sigh, this too shall pass.

She's has just done it now actually, I told her she had to stop watching TV to do her reading. Face dissolves, mouth open in a silent wait, tears start to roll. "Buuuuuuttttttttttt whyyyyyyyyyyyy do I have to read noooooooooowwwwww?". well you can go to the naughty step if you preferBecause if we do it now neither of your sisters will interupt. Oh, that will be nice. Grrrrrrr

Another one in the "fucking fours" club! Although I had it down as the "fearsome fours", which it feels like too.

DS is an adept at the whinging. I also refuse to listen while he's whinging. He argues the toss about everything - "what's that mummy?" It's a horse. "No sorry mummy, you're wrong, it's a donkey" no really, it's a horse. repeat ad nauseam or until I lose the plot and say "Yes of course you're right it's a donkey, you're going to do so well at school with an attitude like that. Why ask the question if you already know the answer?" Of course I realise that sarcasm is wasted on a 4 yo, but it drives me nuts!

Mind you, every now and then he demonstrates a classy bit of logical thinking - last weekend we were out in the park with a friend and met, by chance, another friend with a puppy. DS had earlier been whinging that he was still a little boy and needed his pushchair (because friend's 16mo had hers ) - then he wanted to hold the way-too-strong-and-boisterous puppy. We both told him "no, you're too little". A minute later - "mummy, you were right, I was wrong - I am a big boy now, and I don't need a pushchair and can I hold the puppy please?"

Impressive working out. But this was then repeated non-stop for the next 10 minutes while we walked with the friend-with-puppy - I just zoned out.

I have found that reasoning with DS does work in some instances.
"Look, sheep!" silence.
"Look, more sheep!" "yes, mummy, I know, I've already seen them, stop telling me!!"
"OK, I won't tell you about any more animals we see then, is that better?"
"sorry mummy, no, I do want you to tell me about the animals".

With the "you're not my mummy any more" I was extremely badly behaved myself - it worked but it's not an ideal response - I told him that if I wasn't his mummy I'd better leave then and headed for the door. Cue panic reaction (hence why it was a bad thing to do) and lots of "noooooo you can't leeeeaave!!" which I followed up by suggesting to him that he should be more careful what he says in case people actually do what he is suggesting.

Lots and LOTS of cuddles. It might seem sort of hypocritical to give them cuddles so much after a temper meltdown (yours/mine) but it goes an awfully long way to reassuring them that the mummy they're more used to is still in there.

Someone told me that it's a testosterone surge or something that brings out the "power testing" stage - don't know if that's true or not but it sure as hell is something that happens! It will pass - in several months' time - until then, keep going, one foot in front of the other and breathe. (((hugs)))

Will be watching this thread. And could I just add/ask ? what are your 4yr old boys like at playing alone??!
DS is 4.3 is a non-stop talker (unless flaked out in front of TV). Goes to nursery 5 mornings a week 9-12, then is with me (and 3 yr old DD) for 6 hrs til dad gets in.
I find it so hard sometimes. I can normally adopt the whole ?Playful Parenting? thing, but you can?t do that for 6 hours. The 3 yr old has massive tantrums but I don?t mind those. I really don?t. It gives me something to deal with but the whingeing.it drives straight through me. Drives me nuts. And of course, the more riled I get, the more upset he gets?I am not really that shouty, but horribly sarky (really nasty, I feel like poison ? much worse) ? and then occasionally I really loose it and shout so loud my voice goes hoarse and DS looks terrified whilst DD runs off to hide.

They squabble endlessly, with very short periods of playing nicely (she can amuse herself for ages as long as I?m near), he just CANNOT shut up and even though fed at nursery just expects me to be a kitchen slave? endless snacks it seems.
We do try most days if not raining, to ?do? the park for an hour and that?s all fine, except he won?t do anything alone and I have to play ?tag? for the duration. But if raining, he hates going out.
I try to limit TV (an hour once we get home and then again another hour or hour and a half around 4pm), but there are times when I would love to leave it on.
If I attempt to have 2 mins to myself, to you know, do something super fun like load the washing machine/take a shit/wash up ? he follows me whining ?Play with me mummyplaywithmemummyplaywithme? ? and this is the worst ? EVEN WHEN I AM playing with him, says ?Play then!? ? WTF does he think I?m doing?!
AND ? when will his games get ?proper?? At the moment I hold a Superhero/drawn on bog roll while he repeatedly bashes it ? goodie/baddie style, heaven forbid should I even try to interject some kind of story into play?

Of course, like you all, I do know that it will pass ? but it's geting to the point where I can't wait for 7.30pm to roll around...and it makes me so sad because I would love to enjoy these few months before he goes off to school?.makes it harder that he actually isn?t a huge fan of getting messy (so not really into playdoh, painting at home ? though would happily stab a cardboard box with scissors for nearly 30 mins which was a godsend last week?)...

You wait until 7,30 Eggs??? You're mad! (Mine still gets packed off earlier than that now!)

JM I have been in tears in a very large London park with MiL there (and DH) because Ds was being SO difficult [alternative phrase removed]. I have cried quite a number of times about his behaviour in fact. You'll be glad to hear that it is significantly better now he's 6 (nearly 7 - eek!) and that he's much more content at school - its amazing how problems at school unsettled him not only on school days but right into the holidays.

I also refused to take any account of whiney voices. If something was required it had to be asked for in a reasonable and polite way. I still find that if there is general wailing about something its actually remarkably easy to change it into fits of giggles (normally associated with hiccoughs - difficult to wail with them) - imitation or tickleing (if your ds likes that of course) both are good ploys.

The talking - well, to some extent that has improved a bit because at least he's reading things to himself now so that at least some of the time he's not desperately trying to talk to me and make up for the fact that he's been asleep for 11 hrs so has lots of talking to catch up on.

The other thing that you need to do is to work with your DH with this so that you tag-team together, which is particularly good on a fraught day. DH would sometimes get in and I would pass all responsibility for DS over to him for a period of time - just helped to regain my composure.

By the time he was 4, DS was really pretty good at logic. He knew that he didn't like the consequences when he wound me up (he knows exactly where the buttons are and can manage it still in about 90secs) - so sometimes I was able to set out the two options - either we do this my way and this happens or we don't and this happens - you need to make it only two options, no room for wriggle room and be prepared to follow through. For Ds it was really important for boundaries to be clearly established and immovable. Things always went less well when other people were allowing those boundaries to be bent which was bad for all concerned.

Oh, you are very much not alone. As dd will testify. BUT - in my more on the ball moments I try to channel my mother, so here are her top tips:

Briefing - try to stay one or two steps ahead - easier said than done, but v effective. So if a change is going to happen (stop tv/drawing etc) then give 5 and then 2 mins notice, then a quick additional notice. Plus draw attention to anything fun happening later.

Get them involved at the start - emptying the washing - "do you want to fold the shorts or the t-shirts"? At this age they like jobs and feeling grown up, but limit open questions - two or three options much better.

Reverse psychology - my 5 and 2 yo both respond v well to "don't you dare put those books in the shelf, or I will have to turn into a dinosaur" etc. Takes energy and thinking ahead, but not as stressy and tiring as fighting.

And even at this age, distract - can't have cake, so bustle bustle on to something else, keep talking stream of consciousness that leads other MNers in airport to post threads on your Loud Parenting... It can work, if done quickly and busily enough.

Have a stock of imagination games at hand to get things moving. Currently our walk/cycle to school is an Antarctic expedition, so dd cycles to a set point, picks up supplies, makes a cup of tea, sets up a tent, throws a rope bridge. Quite what people think she's doing I can't imagine, but it's fun and gets us to school.

Do I do all this? Ha! Sometimes. And when I do it's often great. And many other days I am your OP. But I'm a decent mother, and my children seem to still like me, and I have no doubt your ds thinks you are the best in the wholed wide world (as ds says).

I am not alone. Thank goodness I really had started to think that my 4 year old was the only evil little monster in the world but it seems that's not the case.

The arguing - the constant, ceaseless arguements about nothing drive me potty. The emotional outbursts about nothing. The almost teenage sulking and sloping around sighing extravagently.

Marking my place!

OP - I have to rush out, but I soooo feel your pain!

Back to catch up later :)

(And definitely no flaming!)

Ah isn't it marvellous when they're in bed and you come on MN and realise you haven't made some fundamental parenting mistake but it's just that four year olds ARE LIKE THAT!

Thankyou MN, once again.

Also a member of the fucking fours! The whining, the constant arguing and backchat and most annoying, the smirking when he is being told off! It drives me crazy. More annoyingly he knows exactly what he is doing.

Jealously is also raising its ugly head as our DD has just turned 1 and is making milestones such as walking so of course she gets praised which results in a lot of "you love DD more than you love me" and "DD always gets high cuddles" (which to him means being picked up for cuddles). Of course the reassuring him that we love him too lasts for about 10 seconds and it starts all over again.

God I can't wait for the fives. I just hope that they are better!!

The frightful fours are well behind us now but, JM, I remember the horrors. I also used to do the 'not responding to your request until you stop whingeing' thing. It was very effective.

Hang in there. You are not a bad mummy and this too will pass.

Oh, I need to join in please. I've just logged on to start a thread about my 4.3yo ds2. He is such a challenging child, but then was a very challenging baby, and tonight I am totally fed up with it.

He's been a nightmare all day. Tonight was horrible and I felt so angry with him I was very close to hitting him. He was standing outside his bedroom screaming at the top of his very loud voice, preventing his brothers going to sleep. Wanting my undivided attention.
I've obviously never said this inRL to anyone, but he is a very difficult child to like, and all the grandparents find him so difficult they don't like to spend time with him. I've always been fiercely protective of him and really upset about the grandparent thing, but his behaviour in the last month had been to awful I feel like I'm loosing my belief in him and my love for him and wishing I could hand him over to someone else too! Awful to say.

I've no idea where I can go for help, I've been on parenting courses which helped but he is so determined and stubborn that techniques like distraction or ignoring the screaming no longer work, he'll scream louder and louder then hit or bite me to get attention.

His behaviour at nursery is deteriorating too, would they help me get a referral to - what do I need? Educ psychologist? Community paed?

Sorry for long post. Very good to know others finding this age difficult.

Oh dear DS is 2 and very similar behaviour. So it doesn't get better after the terrible twos then? Every night, tantrum about going upstairs for bath, tantrum about getting in bath, tantrum about getting out of bath, tantrum about getting pjs on, tantrum about going downstairs for story, tantrum about going up to bed, tantrum about brushing teeth. Then I put the bottle in his mouth and peace descends. In between tantrums he is charming, funny, sweet, affectionate and very loveable, but the crying really riles me. I'm Ok if DH is around, but on my own I frequently lose it and end up shouting. You aren't the only one who does, if that's any help.

My niece who is now 5 was a real tyrant till about one year ago, but she's calmed down loads and is absolutely lovely now, so I'm sure things will improve as your DS gets older.

Holy cow, just caught up with this thread - I am so very glad not to be alone. Although sorry of course that you're all going through this too, or have gone through it.
Nothing much to report today, managed to evade a whining fit this morning and then went to work today. DH picking him up at grandma's shortly (18:30 here).
We'll see what tomorrow brings.
Thank you all for your advice. Will read properly later.

OP I haven't read whole thread yet but I see someone has already mentioned 1-2-3 Magic and my DSis swears blind by it and has (reasonably) tolerable children, so worth a go maybe? I've just read it and will be trying it with our terrible nearly-two just as soon as DH finishes reading it! I think having a strategy might make you feel less wound up, maybe? Detach, etc...

Also, my mother never ever responded to a single request said in a whiney voice. Someone wrote upthread "I'm sorry, I can't understand you when you talk like that. Tell me in a normal voice what you want to say." - and that's almost exactly what she said! Very pleasantly, but absolutely firmly. I remember her doing it with younger cousins when I was a teen. "Cannnnn III have a driiiiinkkkk?"
"Maybe if you ask me in a proper voice, and say please."
"Can I have a drink please?"
"Of course!" -

etc etc etc, ad infinitum. It must have worked eventually, I do remember that after a week's visit that girl was whining a lot less!

Also, I will shurrup and go read the thread now. I will learn a lot about 4 year olds and probably be paralyzed with fear. Remember, it's a phase, it will pass, it's a phase, it will pass.... Oh! And easter candy. Mmmn. :)

One of my oft repeated phrases is "I don't speak whinge".

I've started to try and use time-out but most of the time my son just ignores me. I tell him that I'm not happy with his behaviour a few times in increasing volume but most of the time I still have to physically pick him up and deposit him in his bedroom.

I really feel as though I'm talking to myself I don't want to shout at him but sometimes I have to raise my voice just to get his attention - his mind seems to be somewhere that isn't on this planet. Is that normal for frightful fours?

The other thing that we find quite effective is counting down - its good because you can gauge the speed of the countdown depending upon the response that you're getting. It went something like this 'Ds, please can you do y now' (often having been warned that its going to happen - also handy). 'No, Ds, now'. 'I'm going to count down to 1 and if you're not on your way to do y by the time I get there, z will happen / b won't happen / there'll be no v for pudding / whatever is a reasonable thing not to happen. 5. 4. No, we need to do it now because... . 3. Ok, just finish that but do it quickly then do y. 2. Yes, now. Hurry up 1.5 Well done, lets get y done quickly then we can do .... '

It now (still in use) goes 'Ds, please can you do y now. No, now. 3 ... well done, lets get it done quickly and do z.'

Some things are very boring to 4 yo - like cleaning teeth - there seems to be very little 'benefit' to them - but if its 'quick, lets get your teeth cleaned so that we have time for story before bedtime (which is seen as a treat) it becomes viewed in a different light - something to be done as efficiently as possible rather than fought against (and yes, DS has gone to bed with no story for playing up at bedtime)