Why is it impossible to get anyone to have both my boys for a playdate?

[tigermoth]

Am I asking the impossible? Here's the situation:
dh and I have 2 sons - oldest 11 at secondary school, youngest 6 in year 2.

As luck would have it, my oldest son's 3 nearby best friends have younger brothers. The older boys are aged 11 or 12. Their younger brothers are aged between 8 and 10.

When organising plyadates, I have made a point of asking both older boy and younger brother round to play. This gives my younger son someone to play with, all the boys get on well and the younger brothers are not left out at home. It also means the parents get a break. I have been doing these dual playdates for at least a year.

The reason I choose to have a houseful of boys is not 100% altruistic. I am hoping said parents of boys will then invite my two sons for reciprocal playdates, thereby giving dh and me a very rare unpaid for childfree interlude. Rare because we have no extended family nearby to do any free childminding - all our time alone together must be paid for.

All the parents know our situation. I do not complain about it, I hope, but I make it clear how little time dh and I have to ourselves. In each case the parents have family on hand nearby, and various childminding options. (I know this because these are people I have known from school for several years).

Now, not one of them ever invites my youngest son when they ask my oldest for a playdate. There is no misunderstanding here, they clearly state they just want my oldest. They have witnessed my youngest son get upset - or their children have. I really feel for ds2, because he finds it hard to comprehend why he cannot play with these boys at their house when they happily play with him at ours.

All these parents are reasonable, responsible people. One even collects my youngest son from school each day and drops him at his playclub. A paid arrangement, but she tells me she really likes him. Yet still no invite when she invited ds1 over.

Why? Why? Why?

Tigermoth if they are as lovely as you are, I can't imagine why no-one would want them as a duo for playdates

Not sure why this would be. I have a similar problem.

My ds (5) has a good friend (8) they play well together. The 8 year old has younger sister (3.5) and I have dd (2). My friend is happy to have ds but has never offered for the girls to play together. I have tried recently to organise things but to no avail. Not sure what to do either.

It is probably just a case of not thinking although you seem to be very considerate and caring of their families - not everyone is like this.

Sorry I am of no help but wanted you to know you are not alone.

I have two 8 and 7 and they always invite the older and not the younger. They are different gender so I can allowances but when it is a child of the youngers gender, same age and still invites the older, I just refuse to send the older without the younger. both, or not at all is my rule. I had an incident where the parent called up (we were all in same building)and asked for older to play downstairs. I said she was out but younger was available (note they always all play together when he comes up to our place). I hear whisper, whisper as she asks about playing with my ds and then comes on the phones and says no, her son doesn't want ds just dd!. I had to do some fast talking to explain it to my ds (I lied) because he is standing there asking when can he go down. I was so pissed! Next time she called and asked for dd I said it would hurt my ds feelings not to be invited therefore I would either send both or none at all. I also stopped inviting him up to our flat.

Oh dear. I am sure you are all lovely, but just to offer another side...

I have three children and tbh just now I do struggle to keep up with the playdate side of things. One or another 'tea' or visit always seems to be hanging over me. This may sound a bit anti-social, but the last thing I need are two or three more children - our house is not large and in winter time playing in the garden is limited. I must admit to feeling a little pressured into accepting playdates in the first place - how do you say thanks but no thanks without being very rude. Then it's your turn and the whole thing gains a momentum that I cannot maintain.

I see they are good things in some ways but for me they often add extra pressure to an already fraught existence just now. They are something I do but don't relish if I'm honest, because my hands are already terribly full.

Also, what if your child gets invited somewhere but does not wish to go. That happened to my daughter and it took tact beyond belief to decline. I'm still not sure I pulled it off.

Message withdrawn

If I move near you next year I'll have them both like a shot, tm. They are lovely boys and it would be a pleasure. I think bloss's suggestion is a really good one- would you feel comfortable gently prodding the parents, do you think? You have a lovely manner and I'm sure no offence would be taken.

Could the problem be that the younger siblings just won't play with your youngest, because he's younger than them? There's 4 years between my two, and I've often tried to invite round a pair of children, only for ds to go off on one about how he hates the older child I've invited, always because that child is younger than ds. Don't ask me why, but boys esp just don't seem to be able to stand playing wiht younger boys. Then I've had to invigilate all the time, to make sure ds is not actually rude to the poor unfortunate whom I've invited into my house. This tends to make me reluctant to repeat the exercise!

Oo- that's probably a change to come for me then, Fauve. My two have usually seemed to quite like playing with slightly younger ones, when we've invited siblings along with their school peers. They seem to feel that their status as the eldest obligates a patronising yet kindly approach to the visitor. As long as the younger child doesn't object to this paternalistic stance things go pretty well on the whole.

Lovely to meet you on Sat, btw.

My boys are 6 and 8, and I have to admit if someone had two boys aged 8 and 4 it simply wouldn't occur to me of inviting the younger one.

Similarly I cannot imagine ds1 wanting to play with a 6 yr-old - it just seems like a big age gap atm.

We tend to use playdates as an opportunity for the boys to have space/time away from each other, and also to have an opportunity to spend one-to-one with the other.
I would be quite happy to have a younger sibiling come to play - at least on a trial basis - but I just wouldn't think of offering

Now I'm racking my brains with guilt to think of dss' friends with younger siblings, and wondering if there's anyone I've offended by not inviting two children!

On an alternative approach, is there any way you can co-ordinate playdates? So arrange for ds2 to go to a friend's at the same time that ds1 is out?

i agree my sons love the paternalistic side - in fact my 16 yo is so brilliant with children is absolutley astounding.

if you ever want to come down tigermoth to do that skateboard bmx park thing - just cat me. i know its an arseache to get here - we'll be bloody freezing etc etc. and most importantly it doesnt solve your problem of wanting alone time with mr tigermoth.

take care hope it works out xxxx

thanks everyone -

I would feel really awkward about prodding them into accepting ds2. (I agree, Bloss, it must be especially baffling to someone who isn't English). If these parents didn't know our family well, it would be easier, but I feel they've made a decision based on knowing ds 1 and ds2 very well. Their younger sons are at school with ds2. Our school is small they have lots of day to day contact with him. I know any of the parents would accept ds2 if I invented a crisis but this is not the point, and I can only do that the once.

I just find it really odd that parents will happily accept a two-son invite from me, while not wanting to offer one in return. If their younger sons feel their role is to be my younger son's playmate, and they don't want to do this because of the age gap, then all the parents have to do is decline the invite. It would be perfectly natural to say 'older brother x can come but younger brother y is busy' - or for the parents to say we prefer sons x and y to have separate playdates with their friends. No offence taken. But no - in 2 or the 3 families this doesn't happen!. One mother tells me she likes her sons to have separate friendships, 'but if you're happy to have both of mine round to play, tigermoth, that's fine' ... so at least she is being up front that she will not be inviting dds2 back to hers. I did think, after some time and as ds2 got older she would rethink, but no.

The irony is that ds2 plays well, can be lively
but is usually well behaved at guests' houses, is sociable and, if he can't join in with an older boys game, can be easily persuaded to play with the older boys' cast off toys (hotwheels cars, lego, army sets, playmobile etc ets). TBH attentionwise, he is actually less demanding than my oldest son.

I can understand, Roisin, why you baulk at inviting a 4 year old brother along with an 8 year old. IMO 4 is still a bit on the young side for big playdates. When ds2 was 4 I would not have expected these parents to have invited him. But he is older now, the gap seems less. He is well past the opening all the kitchen cupboards stage and is beginning to enjoy older boy persuits, like pokemon cards, playing computer games, gameboys etc so can join in.

When I've observed the boys playing together at our home, the two boy guests do not appear to be constantly annoyed with ds2. OK we have our moments, but these boys have all been round now two or three times so know what to expect and presumably would not want to come if they hated ds2 hanging around them. Often the boy guests can be quite paternal, as scummy and custardo say. It has been known for them all to leave ds1 to his cricket watching as none of the older boys share this enthusiasm.

Must dash, I know playdates can be a strain, tinygang so understand why you are less keen on theem at the moment. We do have the space for several children to play, which makes things easier.
Custardo I haven't forgotten the skateboard possiblity - thanks - perhaps in the spring?

soapbox, you are lovely too!

Tigermoth - this sounds a bit off really, they're happy for you to take their kids off their hands but not willing to do the same. I'd not invite their younger one next time and see what the reaction is - maybe not fair on the kid, but it may make the parents realise how unfair this is and maybe make them more open to taking yours? Or maybe not. Who knows?

I think that's off personally .. could you not take a deep breath and ask .. if they are real friends it should be possible next time they invite DS over to say 'oo would it possible for you to have DS2 too .. that would be extremely helpful as we have something planned ... please say no if its too much'

once they've done it once they may have less fear

I think people are scared of too many children in their houses .. don't get it myself .. our house is always crammed to the rafters with other people's kids

Shazzler .. sorry but a 2 year old is a different kettle of fish entirely .. that's childcare not a playdate

I'm English btw .. I would be stunned if a friend felt they couldn't ask if I could have both kids (but then I'd also automatically invite both too)

I'm with Tiny on this one. I too have three children, oldest two are boys. Play dates to me are a real chore. I always keep the numbers low. One extra child can tilt the dynamics of the group, no matter how good the 'compatability' of the children appears. To be honest, I don't really think you can push it with your friends. I

sorry to hear your ds2 is missing out

I agree with bloss, it is so English. I think it's to do with available space.

There were 11 kids from 2 to 11 in our back yard after Kindy the other day, that included older siblings of my ds1's classmates - but all the mums were there too.

As has been suggetsed, do the old, "I'll pick ds2 up in an hour I just have to do XYZ and then see how it goes"

I'm big on meeting my obligations wrt playdates and expecting people to reciprocate tigermoth. I don't exactly keep a scorecard but I do notice if people don't ever invite ds back. In fact one woman asked me to take her boy as a favour while saying in the same breath 'but I won't be having him back' at which point I said no to the favour. Ds has one friend with a younger brother at the same school, the boys are 6 and 8 and I do invite the younger one to tea/parties but only because I know that this boy gets on v well with his brother and with ds and I've seen them all play nicely together in the park. But otherwise I wouldn't have thought to invite a younger sibling just because it wouldn't have occurred to me. However, it can't have not occurred to your friends surely? I'd be offended in your position, definitely and I think I'd probably stop inviting the younger ones on the basis that it's not reciprocated. I know it would be nice to be grown up and ask why they don't take ds2 but I'd find it hard to do too. It does sound most unfair. The space thing wouldn't bother me, we live in a small house but once I've got 3 children here (2 of mine and a friend) another 1 doesn't make much difference in my view. I sometimes even have 2 friends to play at the same time when it's a group of them who all get on well, I just don't see the big deal really, I think it's a bit wussy if that's their reason. I REALLY don't think people should accept a play date for 2 children if they don't intend reciprocating by having 2 back.

I think it simply rude of the other parents not to return the offer of both your boys to play.

It wouldn't cross my mind not to offer!

I have experience of this. I have 4 children but the oldest 2 are both boys, inseparable in many ways, and friends with sets of brothers of the same age as them. At least 2 parents have had both my boys to play and I have had their boys back, but then I have also refused the offer of having both boys because I think it is good for my sons to sometimes do things on their own. It makes them feel special if it is just one of them who is going out occasionally, rather than the 2 together. Of course, the one who is not going feels jealous and lonely when the other is gone, but they both get their turns.

Maybe your younger son does not get invited as he is not exactly the same age as the other boys. Are you sure the 11-12 year olds really want 8 yo brothers hanging around, let alone your 6 yo? I know you said they all get on and that is great, but are you sure it is good for them always to be together when there is a playdate?

That said, I can understand your frustration if you are always having 2 boys round together and no-one else reciprocates. Also, I know how hard it is to see the disappointment of the one who is not invited. Has he not got separate friends he could invite on those occasions?

Sorry, reading back what I wrote I realise it is unclear. I meant, I have refused other people offering to have both my boys at one time.

Hi TM, we're the reverse to you in that our older ds is the same age as your younger. You KNOW both your lovely boys are always welcome at our place and I will consider it a point of honour to have them both round over the Christmas hols, assuming ds1 wants to be seen in a house full of Bionicles, girly tat and NO Playstation
I think it must be the slightly larger than average age gap between your boys which is inducing this blind spot, but I agree with others here that it is poor form not to reciprocate with playdates.
We always have sibs along if they want - what's one more nipper in the chaos...

I have three sons, and would not react well to anyone trying to shoehorn siblings in on a playdate. For one thing, five children in the house would simply be too much for me on a normal weekday after school. For another, I have found that playdates only work if my children take responsibility for the friends they invite. If one of my sons has a friend round, he is then responsible for sorting out any damage done (ranging from untidiness to broken property and hurt feelings). I feel that my children have a basic human right to choose their friends but that should not conflict with my basic human right to be treated with respect in my own home, and not to have the said place completely trashed. My system would not work unless my children actually chose which friends to invite. I have also had problems in the past with other parents trying to use playdates as unpaid childcare and prefer to keep the two entirely separate.

Message withdrawn

If I had this blind spot (as Marina calls it, sensibly) I would find bloss's and twiglett's suggestions the best and friendliest ways to sort it. I bet I have had it, too, as my two are very close in age and I can easily see that I might overlook a younger sibling who's a bit younger than my younger one, if that makes sense - even if I knew they had all played happily together before.