Why is it impossible to get anyone to have both my boys for a playdate?

[tigermoth]

Am I asking the impossible? Here's the situation:
dh and I have 2 sons - oldest 11 at secondary school, youngest 6 in year 2.

As luck would have it, my oldest son's 3 nearby best friends have younger brothers. The older boys are aged 11 or 12. Their younger brothers are aged between 8 and 10.

When organising plyadates, I have made a point of asking both older boy and younger brother round to play. This gives my younger son someone to play with, all the boys get on well and the younger brothers are not left out at home. It also means the parents get a break. I have been doing these dual playdates for at least a year.

The reason I choose to have a houseful of boys is not 100% altruistic. I am hoping said parents of boys will then invite my two sons for reciprocal playdates, thereby giving dh and me a very rare unpaid for childfree interlude. Rare because we have no extended family nearby to do any free childminding - all our time alone together must be paid for.

All the parents know our situation. I do not complain about it, I hope, but I make it clear how little time dh and I have to ourselves. In each case the parents have family on hand nearby, and various childminding options. (I know this because these are people I have known from school for several years).

Now, not one of them ever invites my youngest son when they ask my oldest for a playdate. There is no misunderstanding here, they clearly state they just want my oldest. They have witnessed my youngest son get upset - or their children have. I really feel for ds2, because he finds it hard to comprehend why he cannot play with these boys at their house when they happily play with him at ours.

All these parents are reasonable, responsible people. One even collects my youngest son from school each day and drops him at his playclub. A paid arrangement, but she tells me she really likes him. Yet still no invite when she invited ds1 over.

Why? Why? Why?

Message withdrawn

Just to digress slightly, a question out of interest to those that favour playdates and siblings too - do you also include the friends' siblings when you organise a birthday party.

I know someone that did this but no way could I do this or my older dd's party would've taken on gigantic proportions. Her own siblings came of course, but I had to draw the line at that really.

I am sure it is nothing whatsoever to do with your children, who I am sure are charming. Just I think it's unusual to ask siblings on playdates, and yes, the age gap between 6 and 8 is quite big IMO. I often invite siblings round, but that's because I'm doing the inviting, not ds who isn't good at that sort of thing, and it's often mainly because I want to see their mum (my friend). When ds is older I will expect him to have his friends round rather than his friend plus sibling. I wouldn't be anything personal at all.

I like to hear more from you, hallgerda, as you feel so strongly that 4 boys on a playdate is ok and manageable but 5 boys is not. Don't 4 boys do nearly as much house-trashing and personal space invating as 5 boys? I simply cannot see that there is much difference, unless there was a particular personality clash.

If it was just one family in my circle who did this, I would not feel so odd about it (and I'd put it down to a personality clash) but to have three families doing it seems really incomprehensible.

I do not hold playdates after school as I work outside the home. I don't expect anyone to host a huge playdate on a weekday evening. Saturday afternoon is playdate time for my friends and I.

I see you have a strict system about your children choosing friends to invite, and then taking full responsiblity for their guest. Fair enough, but in my case, my friends' two children are choosing to come visit my two children. If one of the younger children chose not to do this, then there would be no reason to expect my youngest son to get an invite back. As it is, I can't see how the parents can justify to their children or to themselves that it is reasonable to choose one of my sons as a guest but not the other.

I also, don't see a general problem with parents using playdates as unpaid childcare - as long as the children are not tiny and they all get on well. I mean, isn't that part of the deal? I know my three friends use the time off from their own children go on shopping trips to Bluewater, go out to see a film with their partners or whatever - they arrive at collection telling me so, looking relaxed and happy. Then they say say, 'oh we must have ds1 back for a playdate soon....' grrrr! At least they could have the tact to say they spent their childfree afternoon cleaning the house!

My youngest son does have his own happy circle of 5 and 6 year old friends, and sometimes by coincidence I can sort out a playdates on the same day, but I still feel I should wait for an invite rather than demand one at a certain time.

Marina, very kind offer - will CAT you

I realise I've made my poor ds sound a complete monster - when will I learn not to post in the middle of the night? I think it's partly his age that makes him feel burdened by younger children, and the fact that for a year he was the most senior boy in their tiny primary school, so not only did he have to cope with dd's friends hanging round him, in a weird mix of adulation and teasing, but also younger children of both sexes. I think he felt his senior responsibilities shouldn't apply at home!

I do think you're owed some reciprocity - I used to get round the problem by taking all four kids on an outing, eg swimming, so ds wasn't about to complain then,and he didn't have direct 'looking after' responsilities. I guess you can't really suggest that solution, though!

Tinygang, I don't think it's at all expected to invite siblings to parties. I've done that when dd's friend is too shy to come without her older sister, but that's an exception.

Lovely to meet you on Sun, btw, TM!

Also, just throwing in a general question - say you knew someone like me, who has very little childcare to call on, and you had been friendly with that person for 3 or 4 years. Would it really not occur to you to give her a break, especially if she has hosted playdates for both your chikldren, so giving you a break?

Tigermoth sorry you are having such a hard time with this. I view playdates as being for the 'benefit' of the children so to speak and not to provide a break for the parents so it wouldn't cross my mind to offer a date to give the parents a break. If asked, I would, if in a position to do so.

I think that the age difference is the issue you have here. Whilst the older boys may play well with your younger son when they are together are the perhaps chosing not to do so if given the option by their parents. Or since the younger siblings maybe nearer in age to your eldest could the other friends think you are inviting both their children to play with your older child - if you understand that rather compliated ramble you are doing well.

Could you not get some paid childcare to give you and your husband some time together? Or just ask your friends outright instead of getting upset about this?

Fauvre, your ds doesn't sound like a monster. I know my ds1 doesn't like hanging around for too long when my 6 year old has his friends to play. He too takes on the role of helper if I am lucky, otherwise retreats to play alone on his xbox. I wouldn't expect any parents of my ds2's friends to invite my relative giant of an 11 year old as well. Unless of course, they had another older boy my son knew well and got on with, and I had hosted a dual playdate for both of them.....

Have to admit, tinygang, I did invite five sets of sibllings to my oldest son's party last year, at home. I am nothing if not determined!

One set of 6 year old twins ( boy and girl), two brothers (age 8 and 10 - their parents are lovely people and will invite both my sons round, but are not at the same school as everyone else, so we don't have as much contact). I also invited my three friends' boys (both) ... in fact, now I thing of it, siblings almost outnumbered only chidren. You'd think someone would get the message!

I get the feeling that it's because your ds2 is that bit younger than the other siblings, as others have suggested. Perhaps the parents think that both their children are invited to play with ds1?

My boys are 6 and 4 and play together happily, but if a friend of ds1 comes to play ds2 tends to be excluded by ds1 -- he wants to play with his friend and doesn't want little brother around. So these days I try to have ds1's friends round when ds2 is at nursery. Also doesn't help that none of ds1's school friends have a younger sibling but several have older ones.

Having said that, I know some of the parents quite well, and we sometimes have the whole family round for lunch/BBQ (not in this weather) and they reciprocate, so sometimes all the children play together, despite the age range.

Would you consider trying inviting the whole family round (so that they reciprocate and get used to ds2 playing in their house), or maybe you don't want to get that friendly with the parents?

gomez, I do take your point that somne people will see playdates as primarily for the children.
If my friends feel this, then really they should think twice about letting both their sons come play with my sons. I know the older boys are firmer friends in each case, so no one is under any ilusion that the younger boy guests have been invited round just to play with the my oldest son. And indeed, having watched them all play together, I don't see my youngest ds being left out or ignored by the guests. That is why I took the initiative to have dual playdates, so I could see how all 4 boys got on. I really assumed that after a couple of dual playdates, we'd start getting some dual invites back

spent ages typing that- - I see Gomez had the same thought about 15 mins ago!

What an interesting thread. I have to say I think in many ways it illustrates that split TM and I feel strongly about, between people who have some sort of family (or less frequently, paid) backup and those who don't. I tend to feel, admittedly rather nastily, that it's the duty of those parents to put themselves out a bit

On the same basis, I'd ask outright.

MI are you serious re parents with help? I don't have any family alive/fit enough/ close enough to babysit for me, and most of my friends do, but it doesn't make a difference to our friendship nor do I feel that tehy should put themselves out for me

Interesting situation Tigemoth and i understand why you are not happy with things as they stand.

I think you are being taken advantage of - i can't believe that they feel this is a fair situation.

As to what you should do -I think the only way out, if you don't want to say anything, is to only invite ds1's friend. Of course that will lead to all sorts of problems with ds2 (IME) eg jealousy and interfering with older siblings fun so you will either have to arrange for ds2 to have one of his friends around or for him to go on a playdate somewhere else.

Sadly i think (being very cynical) that the other familys are just doing what suits them best. I would be interested to know what happens on the playdates when ds1 goes alone. Is it just the 3 of them or does their younger son have one of his particular friends around too?

Tigermoth - I totally agree with you. If they accept your help and then they should offer to have your two. It is not as if they haven't been getting anything out of the arrangement themselves - a break! And surely they would want to help you out.

I would not feel comfortable behaving the way they are. And you clearly deserve some help!!

I think I would probably mention it to them, although I would feel awkward. I would also be tempted not to invite their younger child on the next playdate but wouldn't want to upset him as it is not his fault.

Hmmm, that post is terribly written.

Basically I agree with you, WWW, LTH and so on.

if my children want to invite friends round it wouldnt occur to me to have their siblings too. However, I have had friend and siblings as a favour for the parents. I find it is rarely reciprocated. There was a time when my dd's friend (a boy) used to come round a lot. I would also have his sister (in my ds's class) round too (usually as a childcare favour) until I heard said friend and his sister telling my ds to get out of dd's room and "get lost - you're not wanted here". I approached them and asked on what grounds he wasnt welcome in his own house - because he's younger or a boy? Havent had them round since.

On another point though, a friend of mine has a ds 4 years younger than my ds and expects them to play together because her ds likes to play with my ds. My ds however, feels he is too young and doesnt enjoy the experience but puts up with it because I tell him to.

Tigermoth, on the general question you threw out: yes I think it would occur to me that my hypothetical friend might need a break, and I'd act on that - but that would be because she and I over the years we'd known each other would have had a good few comfy cathartic moans (my friendships tend to involve those, you see) so I would have known what was going on. Without those, I am not sure that I would intuit her feelings.

So - do these families know your pressures? Or do they have a picture of you as high-energy, efficient, sweep all before you Tigermoth?

I suspect the root problem is probably different assumptions. They probably assume you want both children round to play with your two, and you are assuming that they will realise you are only doing doing it so that they will reciprocate. Both of you are continuing with the arrangement - them happily, you unhappily - and not making anything explicit. I honestly think you have to say something, such as - 'oh, the cinema! What a fantastic idea! Dh and I would love to go to the cinema! Any chance you'd have ds2 around next time ds1 comes so we can do it as well?' I doubt very much they'd refuse. That way you'd both get your needs met. If you keep waiting for the penny to drop I suspect it never will and you will only get more resentful.
And no, it really wouldn't occur to me that except in times of crisis - family illness, bereavement, depression etc - to take a friend's kids to give them a break. I generally assume, unless told differently that people are happy with their arrangements/childcare and babysitting.

I suspect the root problem is probably different assumptions. They probably assume you want both children round to play with your two, and you are assuming that they will realise you are only doing doing it so that they will reciprocate. Both of you are continuing with the arrangement - them happily, you unhappily - and not making anything explicit. I honestly think you have to say something, such as - 'oh, the cinema! What a fantastic idea! Dh and I would love to go to the cinema! Any chance you'd have ds2 around next time ds1 comes so we can do it as well?' I doubt very much they'd refuse. That way you'd both get your needs met. If you keep waiting for the penny to drop I suspect it never will and you will only get more resentful.
And no, it really wouldn't occur to me that except in times of crisis - family illness, bereavement, depression etc - to take a friend's kids to give them a break. I generally assume, unless told differently that people are happy with their arrangements/childcare and babysitting.

at MI's take on 'duty'. Blimey I don't mind helping out if asked, but if I thought someone considered it my duty I'd be off like a shot.

I think Aloha's point is quite true and possibly what is happening here.

To answer your other question my friends and I take each others' kids quite regularly, but maybe thats the situation as we are all living a long way from our families.

Iota, I was exaggerating a bit but yes, I do think that it's perfectly clear that those of us who don't have backup are frequently under rather more strain than those who do.

(It's my equivalent of other parents' feelings that childfree people have Life Frightfully Easy. Both are probably equally unjustified.)

And I was wrong to use the word 'duty', totally. Take it back. Viewpoint clouded and embittered by envy, deadly sin and all that, grovel.