Why is it impossible to get anyone to have both my boys for a playdate?

[tigermoth]

Am I asking the impossible? Here's the situation:
dh and I have 2 sons - oldest 11 at secondary school, youngest 6 in year 2.

As luck would have it, my oldest son's 3 nearby best friends have younger brothers. The older boys are aged 11 or 12. Their younger brothers are aged between 8 and 10.

When organising plyadates, I have made a point of asking both older boy and younger brother round to play. This gives my younger son someone to play with, all the boys get on well and the younger brothers are not left out at home. It also means the parents get a break. I have been doing these dual playdates for at least a year.

The reason I choose to have a houseful of boys is not 100% altruistic. I am hoping said parents of boys will then invite my two sons for reciprocal playdates, thereby giving dh and me a very rare unpaid for childfree interlude. Rare because we have no extended family nearby to do any free childminding - all our time alone together must be paid for.

All the parents know our situation. I do not complain about it, I hope, but I make it clear how little time dh and I have to ourselves. In each case the parents have family on hand nearby, and various childminding options. (I know this because these are people I have known from school for several years).

Now, not one of them ever invites my youngest son when they ask my oldest for a playdate. There is no misunderstanding here, they clearly state they just want my oldest. They have witnessed my youngest son get upset - or their children have. I really feel for ds2, because he finds it hard to comprehend why he cannot play with these boys at their house when they happily play with him at ours.

All these parents are reasonable, responsible people. One even collects my youngest son from school each day and drops him at his playclub. A paid arrangement, but she tells me she really likes him. Yet still no invite when she invited ds1 over.

Why? Why? Why?

It's just that when I read the injunctions on MN to Get Out With My Partner And Rekindle The Romance or Should I Go Away From My Children from people who can consider these alluring options....

All in all, TM, I reckon you should request outright before you reach my state of corrosive nastiness

Tigermoth, in answer to your question about why I find 4 boys in the house acceptable and not 5, I tend to intervene gently if the situation starts to move towards house-trashing. Four generally split nicely into son and friend in one room and my other two sons in another - if there were five, either someone would be left out or there would be a riot. If there is a need for calming people down, board games, cooking and other quiet distraction activities work better with four participants than five.

Hallgerda - -agree with you re dynamics changing depending on no. of children - -3 is not such a good number in our house - 2 or 4 works much better - and I prefer 2 - not sure I'd want to try 5 TBH

MI - -agree with you re at couples who have the option to go away for a w/e end their own.

My solution to time away from kids is to put ds2 in nursery and be a SAHM -- doesn't really help rekindle the us time with dh though, although does mean I can get my hair done, go shopping, go out for lunch with friends etc

MI - psml at corrosive nastiness!

Tigermoth I think you need to do as suggested by Aloha and many others, take the bull by the horns and ask. Worse case - they say no, you know exactly where you are and adjust your generosity downwards in the future.

Am I really alone in not have any expectations about the reciprecation or otherwise of playdates??

nothing to add to the good advic eyou have here but just to say I am following thread and on your behalf

just time for a quick message before ds1 needs the computer for homework.
I can't believe the parents do not realise dh and I are starved of time together or free time alone without children. I do tell them, I have told them dh and I haven't had a weekend away since ds1 was born 11 years ago. I am sure, greeted with news of a childfree cinema trip/shopping excursion etc I have mentioned how much dh and I would like to do that. I have hinted, after all part of the reason I do dual playdates is go get them to reciprocate.What I have not done is spell it out, asked them to have ds2 as well as ds1 'next time' But honestly do I really have to do that! I just cannot believe they haven't understood so far.

OK, dh and I can do have babysitters, but honestly, I wouldn't feel happy about leaving my son(s) with a babysitter on a Saturday afternoon:

One, they are awake, so the babysitter will not have an easy time and will want, quite rightly, a high hourly rate.

Two, they need entertaining ad preferably taken out for a while if we are gone for a long afternoon. It is their free time as well. Not only do my teenage babysitters not have cars to drive, they are not really up taking them on outdoor excursions IMO. Also, if I pay for cinema tickers and taxis, to and from the cinema And babysitting, it gets expensive. Sorry to bleat on about money but that's often what it comes down to.

Three, the babysitters I use are often busy during the weekend afternoons and early evenings.

Now, I do feel there is some urgency to this. dh and I do not plan to be in London forever. We intend to move to Devon in the next 2 years and are working towards this now. I do love London and feel sad I can't see more and do more. I always hoped - and expected - that when my youngest son got past reception age, I could rely on some reciprocal arrangements to free up time for dh and I to go out and enjoy London while we are still here.

Having four children puts a whole new perspective on this discussion. Nobody will ever take four at once, so the reciprication never rears its ugly head.

(Have remembered while reading this thread that DS2 and DS3 have had a few joint playdates to one particular family's house that we didn't ever reciprocate. Whoops.)

Tigermoth - We have never had any time away from our kids either - I do know how you feel. I have never spent a night away from ds who is 9! We never go out on birthdays, anniversaries etc together without kids either. Please move close to me so we can reciprocate

You have to ask TM! You just do. Nicely of course, you couldn't do it any other way. Just 'oh, that sounds fantastic. YOu couldn't take ds2 next time ds1 comes over could you, then we could do the same'. Make it sound like a joke if it makes you feel comfortable.

Btw My mum lives near me, is happy to look after ds and help out a bit with dd, but that's WHY I only have formal childcare two days a week. And she has never had ds overnight so we could go away or had both kids on her own. I really think that our parents did a lot of looking after when we were small, and I don't recall my grandparents babysitting us or having us overnight so my parents could go out on the town. Just the usual teenage babysitters who came, watched tv, did their homework and phoned their boyfriends all night. I think this is a modern phenomenon - well that's my experience.
Anyway, back to the point, I think you either have to ask (in a friendly, jokey but pretty direct way) OR stop having joint playdates at your house if you find them a PIA. I'm not at all sure that there is a third way. And a I really truly doubt that the other people in this arrangement have the slightest idea how you feel.

I mean, "being the person you clearly are you couldn't do it any other way" iyswim.

Tigermoth -- I would feel the same as you, but obviously other parents aren't getting the hint. I agree with all who said a more direct approach "Any chance DS2 could come too?" is called for.

Well TM - you will be living near me soon. Would I have your 2 boys? Not if I had ds1 here. Would you be able to have my 3- not at all. So anyway- come over for a cup of coffee and neither of us will have the others kids but we can chat in the company of children

Having read it all I suspect people don't think about it because 6 is younger than 8 (obviously- but maybe he seems tiny to them). A hint might be all that is needed, but I would feel weird about hinting (as I suspect from the thread you do).

God I dread all this- there is no way we will be able to reciprocate very easily when ds2 starts to venture out. Oh hell.

Aloha, I think a lot of people have traditionally had 'family' around; we're more mobile as a society than we used to be. Grandparents and other relatives are still assumed to be around and on the spot.

AT least you have good reasons for finding it difficult to reciprocate, Baka.

DS1 is 6, btw, and regularly plays quite happily with children 7-9yo; I am surprised that people think the gap between 6 & 8 is supposed to be so "big". In fact, day after tomorrow, DD (4) has been invited for a playdate with a 3yo girl... and DS1 has been invited along as well to play with her 8yo brother. The 8yo got to tag along last week (at DS1's insistence) when his 3yo sister came to mine.

I agree zebra- ds2 loves playing with older and younger children. Perhaps people see it as kind of school yeargroup defined or something. I don't know anything about playdates though so I shouldn't comment really. TM and family are always welcome here though But... will they want to come (we have a trampoline that anyone can use TM!)

For me I think there are 2 kinds of playdates - there are ones that are made between kids who are friends, and when I do these I wouldn't normally include siblings. Then there are ones that are made more between adults who are friends, which is usually more about giving an adult friend a bit of a break/doing them a favour in which case I do have the siblings. My mums/friends network means that on the whole these 2 categories don't overlap. I think Tigermoth you are very thoughtful and generous but its not giving you the break you want. Could you expand your play date pool (as it were) by inviting some of your younger ds's friends round and maybe, one day, they'll get invited to different places at the same time (I live in hope...)

I have a 6 and 5 year old, and we are just moving into playdate territory (esp as I am a working mum). It is always very nice if someone invites both dd and ds, but I certainly wouldn't expect it from a school friend, regardless of if there are siblings. I've always thought that it was for the child to decide in those circumstances. For us it can work in slightly odd ways - for example dd was invited to one of ds's classmates' house the other day. They have occasionally both been invited to a party, I wouldn't expect to have to reciprocate, but it's nice if you can (depending on a whole load of factors, such as what your kids think, how much space/energy you have). I guess I feel that if anyone wants to have them both that's fantastic, but if it's only on a reciprocal basis that would make me uncomfortable. If it's between adult friends then that is a different matter, and the age gap etc would be irrelevant. I think that aloha is right, you need to come out and ask directly. I wouldn't advocate the have sibling for an hour because we have fixed to go and do something - that would appear to me to be rude, and would make me question a friendship. If you ask directly, or say that you thought it would be reciprocal if you had both their children then you can at least talk about it - maybe their perception of you is rather different than you imagine.

Really though, did grandparents regularly take over their grandchildren for long periods and overnight? I really don't remember it from my childhood or remember my friends going to their grandparents either. I hope I don't sound smug or critical - I don't mean to and I too would LEAP at the chance of a weekend away with dh (when dd sleeps through anyway ) but realise if we do, we will have to pay for overnight childcare (am currently grooming dd's new nanny for the role, unbeknownst to her, he he!) but I wondered if we had got so used to the idea of freedom and spontenaiety that we have come to expect it as the norm, when perhaps it isn't.

ok, ok, I will go with the consensus and be more direct with the parents. The next time a playdate is arranged at my house or another parents' house, I will ask in a nice way if the parents can have both our sons round. I will not invent a crisis, but I bet the parents will expect/assume there is one, hence me needing a special favour, and they will imply that of course it's ok, they'll help out just this once.

I think this because the parents have made it clear in so many various ways that it's ds1 who gets the regular invite, and dds2 is at best an occasional add on. I know they will make him feel welcome - the parents are all very nice, and generous people, but they just have a blind spot.

I think they approach play dates from the children's point of view, not the giving a reciprocal break to tigermoth point of view. They just cannot comprehend how difficult it is for dh and I to have a saturday afternoon alone togther. Or how dependent I am on dh at the weekends if I want to go shopping by myself - if he can't look after my sons, I am pretty much stuck. Sorry if I sound whingy and cynical, but I have hinted to the parents a lot, and this has been going on for a year. As

I know in the grand scheme of things it's not the biggest problem. And I do take the odd bit of flexileave from work during the week when the children are at school for time alone.

If my children were too young for playdates I would not complain, but I know they are both fine on playdates, as are their friends. When I host a four boy playdate, it is really not much trouble - no fights, no tears, no huge house trashing - so assume it wouldn't be a huge problem for other parents to host reciprocal playdates.

baka, I really will look forward to visiting you - (Devon plans have moved on and dh is a nearly qualified pest controller. Now PILs have moved to kingsbridge, they are waiting for the builders to start work on making their flat and the other flat liveable. And the builders were meant to start in September but no sign of activity yet) Anyway, can my boys really really really go on your trampoline?

As for grandparents and family doing lots of looking after children, I do see the parents around here getting a fair bit of family back up for shopping trips, nights out - ok perhaphs not regular overnight babysitting but some, definitely. Aloha, my friends have older children, IMO easier to babysit, less physically demanding than toddlers so elderly grandparents can and do help a little more.
sorry if I haven't replied to all points raised, but I have to dash off again.

TM Without hurting your feelings is there perhaps another reason they dont invite DS2?If you are going to ask directly you shouild be prepared to be told its because he's too lively/does'nt play well with the others etc. Some children are very different without thier parents around.
To me its pretty unusual not to invite siblings on playdates, I have 3 and they are often invited together, I frequently have other families for playdates and to give other parents time to do their christmas shopping etc. I have een had kids overnight to give them a night away for special birthdays etc. BUT there are some siblings i wont have together because they are too lively and dont play well together and its just not woth it.

Aloha when I was 10 (1983) and my sisters were 8 and 6 (so in Tigermoth's age range) my grandparents would have us at their caravan near Bridlington for a week in the summer holidays. I think this was probably a lovely break for my parents who didn't have much money and couldn't afford paid babysitters. They would come with their tent at the weekend, stay a night and then take us home. They would also have us for 2/3 days at October half term. I remember my Mum used to buy steak one night because they could only afford it if there was just the two of them.

However I think you are right Aloha and Tigermoth should be a little more direct in her approach. Its tricky because I am willing to help anyone out in any way that I can (work 3 days so am limited by that) but not sure that I make this clear to my friends who in general have less need of babysitters than me.

MI I totally understand where you are coming from. I am luckier than you in that I have limited family help but I have only had 1 night out with just DH since DD was born 18 months ago and that was to see effin starwars!

tigermoth - understand as I've no family nearby to help. For me it's only possible to have one kid round to play at a time as I've 4 of my own. When I've had more than one round to play it's difficult to keep track of where they are when everyone decides to do different things.

TM I think it helps if you can change your mindset a bit (meant in the nicest way). It's very easy to get into the habit of thinking it's not fair we never get to do x, y and z and everyone else does. I have to fight very very hard not to feel like that all the time.

Could you and your dh not grab a couple of hours whilst the boys are at school- even ifit means "wasting" a days holiday. dh has tomorrow off, ds1 will be at aschool, ds2 at nursery and by coincidence ds3 at the cchildminders (he doesn't go very often- maybe twice a month). We've decided to go out for coffee. We haven't done that for about 3 years, except for the days when we've gone to pecs conferences- and days talking about autism don't count.

ds1 loves bigger boys on the trampoline- so your ds1 probably won't be allowed to get off

oh I meant to say it's kind of better to get over it and stop thinking about it. Not said judgnentally at all- I go through phases when I feel very bitter indeed- especialy at people not understanding what it's like-which is perhaps how you feel- I just think an attitude shift makes the world a nicer place to be in, because you can't make people understand. They either do (my mum and some of her family) in which case they do everything they can to help,or they don't (rest of the world), and never will.

Baka thats what DH and I did yesterday. DD to nursery, DS to childminder and school and DH and I out shopping and a luxurious lunch with wine.