DH's parenting manual to fix what is going wrong with the youth of today...

[GreatGreySlug]

DH says his book would have only 3 words - Shout-Smack-CUDDLE!

I used to disagree with him but reading about standards of behaviour in schools declining, increasing violence in society and prisons overflowing, I'm starting to think he is right. What do people think?

Not an excuse, an explanation.
There's a huge difference.

It's also a massive informant in terms of how to approach discipline- there always has to be some but different forms work for asd than otehr kids, often anyhow. So social stories, obsession-as-motivator, finding ways to manage slow processing or attention doifficultuies that contribute to behaviours perceived as 'naughtiness' (eg prompt boards).

My 2 are 15 and 17 and not had major problems with discipline.

My book of parenting would say:

Treat them as you would an adult as soon as they are old enough to understand English.

Punish crimes not mistakes.

Laugh a lot.

Thank you Peachy. I'm thinking about PMing you, but does it involve you seeing my email address? - because when people receive emails from me, my name comes up as well as the email address, and after so many people on this thread seem to dislike me intensely that worries me for some reason.

It won't, GGS. If you send Peachy a mail, your email addy won't come up unless you specifically give it to her.

Peachy is fab on all ASD stuff, she's doing a degree on it as well as having direct experience.

I mean a PM, obviously

GGS I;d need it for the powerpoints BUT whilst I really do not ahev any opinion of you (heck I worked for a parenting charity, I am trained not to judge LOL) there's always hotmail where you can set up a free one as whatever name you want to be.

Thank you MC. Taught bit almost over now; just the research proposal and study itself then done, MA. Blimey!

You should be v proud of yourself, doing an MA with everything you have onyour plate

I don't dislike anyone here, I don't know anyone personally.
I disliked the tone of your original post, and I disagreed with the belief that hitting is a good discipline strategy for any child.
That does not convert into disliking a poster, or misusing the pm system, or making a direct attack on anyone. I'm sorry you are feeling so defensive.

MC you don;t know how much I needed to ehar that, BIL had a massive go at me for being lazy a few days back and it kncocked me sideways (you know the type- third degree at third attempt, works hard for sure but gets a lot from his dad including all son's school fees then thinks anyone with less must have done something to. deserve it.

Thank you. I got an A by the way for my Critique. If I can ever afford it would love to do research, might happen h? DH's Lecturers said a Phd might suit him though and we cannot both do it.

Peachy, your BIL is clearly a tit.

You should do something big to celebrate when you finish. When dh handed in his final thingy for his MBA we left the boys with my mum and went on a 4 day bender in Amsterdam

Am likimg sound of that PMSL

DH and I should graduate at the same time, so we are deffo going to have to do soemthing decent. When I get a proper job I am going to get myself an iPad, and when i can afford it a new mini clubman but soem form of proper celebration is surely needed.

And yes BIl is a twat; managed to offend my Mum who hs given him 6 years of free childcare too- does he not relaise comments to 6 year olds about social housing get back to people? Twonk!

GGS

i'm a little puzzled as to why on earth you would start a thread telling us all that your DH has the answers to the nations 'unruly children', when it's clear now that you and your family are indeed in need of outside input, be that for medical and or social aspects.

good luck with getting to the bottom of it all, but please can you answer why you were so evasive and defensive earlier today? you're getting some answers and ideas now, but had a bloody funny way of going about asking for it.

Beaker

Not unusual as a reaction to ASD (might be compeltely off the marker but still) denial, acceptance and the pain it brings- even the ear of, if it all turns out not ot be- can make people do a few strange things.

i understand what you are saying Peachy, but the OP (post not Poster) was really weird

without reading all the other replies, I am glad my DC are not your DH's children then OP, as his version of parenting sounds very emotionally controlling to me.

Thank you all, I've found it useful to see just how much 'normal' people are against smacking (assuming MN posters are normal ), and have discussed it with DH. I feel reassured that I should carry on doing the things I thought were right without adding smacking into it and I do think that smacking would make him feel worse and behave worse.

I feel that DS does have some kind of ASD thing, but DH, and relatives, and some friends seem so against the idea that there is anything 'wrong' with him and would rather think that his behaviour is because I/we are too soft. I often wonder this too and have doubts about whether I'm doing the right things because nobody has said he definitely has ASD. I would actually feel better if he was diagnosed with it. I've been wondering why I didn't mention it nearer the beginning of the thread and can see why that would seem shocking. I think I feel 'silly' saying he might have it when there are people who seem so certain he doesn't. I also wanted to see how people felt about smacking in general (partly so that I could use it in my arguments/discussions with DH) before adding 'is it to do with ASD' into it. I, maybe stupidly, wasn't expecting anyone to get particularly upset by it, so I'm sorry if people have found it upsetting.

We have only smacked when we've got to the end of our tether, not actually used it as a regular parenting technique, and I've regretted it and felt awful about it. I'm even more determined to work harder at the other 'techniques' and not let it get that out of control again and have told DH I will not be happy with him doing it again either. Thank you ASDX2 for the stuff you emailed me which will also help. Some of you wrote about talking to your children in a nice way and with respect and that does seem to make DS a tiny bit more cooperative when I manage to do it. I know I should do it, and have been trying to but sometimes I'm so fed up with every little thing being a battle, like when children are toddlers, when I feel he should have grown out of it by the age he is now, that I talk in a horrible way and find it really hard not to, and it definitely makes him much much worse! Thank you for reminding me about this because I feel this is the key thing for me to work on. It's how slow the progress is with him which makes me have doubts about what I'm doing even though I know deep down I'm doing the right things.

Good luck GGS. It's never easy and the ASD thing, however that turns out, is definitely a complicating factor. I think the more you're able to keep your extreme emotions (end-of-tether-ness) out of it, i.e. not showing when you're that upset, the better - walk away if necessary. I always felt, when smacked as a child, that it was an emotional release for my mother, and resented it, it never made me want to change my behaviour. Calmness and consistency is everything - even when kids don't seem to be taking in your repeated messages of the 'right way to behave' eventually I think they do. Wishing you the very best.

GGS

I'd suggest taking a look at this book. I've recently read it and it has some really good ideas for non-smacking discipline.

They may not be very MN but here is a ((((hug)))).

I don't think violent tantrums are unusual at 6 - I know a number of children who have them (although the level of violence we are talking about may be different - I'm talking about lashing out at a parent or throwing something maybe once or twice and then calming down). Do people really think it's unusual?

GreatGreySlug - I've been following this thread, and fwiw I think you've had a bit of a rough time from some, frankly, very aggressive sounding posters.

You've now revealed that your DS may have ASD, which is obviously a whole new kettle of fish with regards to effective ways of disciplining him, and something that I am no way experienced enough to comment on, unlike some of the other posters on here.

However, going back to your orginal question and your DHs 'solution', I think the reason you're getting so much shit from others is because of the simplistic terms that you outlined as your DHs solution- 'shout, smack, cuddle'. The whole issue is so complex and emotive, and like someone mentioned, it would take a great amount of detailed scientific study to determine if children who are/were smacked are more likely to turn into the 'unruly yoof' of today. There will always be children who grow up in violent households (and by violent I mean DV, severely beaten for barely breathing, not the odd smack) who will of course grow up to be violent, problem, adults. There will be children who were smacked who will grow up violent, children who were smacked who grow up 'normal' and non-violent, and there will be children who weren't smacked who grow up violent, as well as non-violent.

I wonder if a great deal of the problem with today's 'yoof' is not whether or not they've been smacked, but the fact they are treated like little adults by their parents as soon as they can talk (as someone on here suggested), are given the opportunity to reason and question everything with adults from tiny, and to TALK through EVERYTHING and be given almost too much say in everything in they do. Thus lacking respect of parents and authority as they think they rule the roost and are equal to parents. I'm not talking about running a dictatorship in the home, and that once children get older they can discuss and negotiate boundaries with parents (part of growing up and gaining independence), but parents should be parents and children should be the children. Bottom line is when tiny that children should do what their parents say, and not question it. It makes me cringe when I hear parents say that their child is their 'best friend'. If you've done a good job when your child is little, and manage to survive the teenage years, then you may be lucky enough to have your now adult child as a friend. Small children can (and should) have a say in small things, maybe what they wear out of a choice of two outfits, say, or what takeaway the family should get on a Friday night, but not the everyday basics that should just happen, no question.

OP, fwiw I was smacked a handful of times as a child by both my Mum and my Dad, when i had done something dangerous i.e. ran out into the road, or was being extremely insolent. Either on the hand, or on the back of the legs. It hasn't scarred me, and I am a normal, happy, non-violent member of society. My Mum says she that by the time I was about 6 or 7, they no longer had to smack me, as a warning of a count to 3, or a certain look from my Mum, would 9 times out of 10 make me behave, as I know that I would then get smacked if I didn't. And this wasn't because I was trembling in my boots in fear of my parents, it was just that i'd learned to respect their authority, and that if they started 'the countdown' then I must be behaving pretty badly! I have a great relationship with them still, and think their method of parenting was consistent and fair. And yes, there were also plenty of cuddles, and I didn't find that this gave me 'mixed messages' or was 'confusing'- cuddles happened most of the time, and if i misbehaved I got a smack/tap- seemed fairly simple to understand in my eyes, taught me what was bad behaviour!

I read something along the OP in the news the other day, and someone commented that a mother cat would give her kittens a nip or a bat around the head if they are playing up, and why should humans be instinctively any different? I think they had a point. Humans ARE animals at the end of the day, abeilt highly complex ones. Of course there will be people who argue that they don't instinctively want to smack their child, and that's fine and fair enough. But I think the media, MN etc has made parents who do want to go down this 'old fashioned' route extremely guilty. And remember here, i'm talking about a small smack NOT beating 10 shades of shit into your kids.

My mum often says that when she was small (child of the 50s), if you were caught misbehaving when playing out by the local bobby, you'd get a clip around the ear and sent home. Then if you had the nerve to tell your parents what had happened and complain, then you'd get another clip around the ear for getting the first one from the bobby! In those days, parents seemed to work more with authority i.e. police, teachers. These days lots of parents can't believe that their little darlings would ever get into trouble, and are outraged when anything is said against little Johnny- just ask friends of mine who are both primary and secondary school teachers. I also have worked as bank staff at a nursery, and lots of the older children who IMO know better (4/5 year olds) were terrible at listening to us adults when we asked 'nicely', and because you were "not allowed to shout", often just didn't listen at all. I remember when I first started at the nursery, and a 4 year old was hanging off his chair with his head on the floor during lunch, and I said "X, that is really stupid behaviour, you're going to fall off your chair and hurt yourself, now please eat your lunch"- ALL the children looked at me and said "UMMMMMMMMMMM, you said the BAD word!" saying that behaviour (not the child mind) was 'stupid' was "not allowed" and I was told off by all of them (I was mortified!)- kids at THREE and FOUR knew their 'rights'. And i'm sorry, and I will probably get flamed for this, but i think that's crazy...

My DS is only 11 weeks, so I have no idea yet what kind of parent I will be, or what kind of personality he will develop, thus won't know what discipline works best for us for a while yet- but if that's not smacking then so be it, and if it involves the odd small smack for really bad behaviour, then I don't always think that it's the end of the world, or that DS will grow up to be the scurge of society. I'd also hazard a guess that there are more people on MN who smack, and it works for them, than dare to admit it for fear of being verbally attacked, have their DH called a tosser, or their relationship questioned like the OP has had done here.

Wow that was long!

Flame away!

Thank you Wolfhound and Gaps. ArcticLemming - Sometimes I think I really don't know what is normal and when you realise that normal things are normal they are less worrying. I thought DS was normal until the school asked us to get him referred.

Thank you PossetFeatures for trying to stick up for me and risking a 'flaming' It does worry me that some people on here would think I should leave my DH if he has a lapse, loses it, and gives one of our children a slap on the bottom, and that if I didn't leave him I would be weak and immoral. He probably will have a 'lapse' at some point even though I've told him I don't want him to do smacking. I think that leaving him would do a lot more harm to the children than the small slap on the bottom. I agree that the simplistic way of my OP was bound to cause a big reaction but I was being dimwitted not to realise it would.

Well, I was smacked and have no violence (or other) issues. I certainly shaln't be smacking DD or any future children though.

If I were you, OP, I would stop worrying so much about the youth of today and consider:

a) that statistically violent crime has not increased in the last 100 years

b) that violent behaviour that was considered normal for teens in the mid-1900s now makes the newspapers

c) that the vast majority of modern teens do not make the papers, except, perhaps, as winners of sports awards and organisers of charity events

d) that you are probably paying far more attention to reports of youth misbehaviour and discipline problems in schools than you were 30 years ago- but I can assure you they were around

e) that nations that banned smacking 30 years ago do not have greater problems with youth behaviour and violence than this country

f) that countries that had banned corporal punishment in schools 40 years ago did not then have greater problems with school discipline than English
schools which had retained it

I grew up in Sweden 40 years ago, when corporal punishment had already been banned in schools and smacking at home was frowned upon; not illegal, but something that you didn't really do. I remember the adults around me as people with great authority, and there was a general expectation that you had to obey, but that adults would also listen to your pov. When I go back home and look at the parents of my own generation, it seems little has changed; I do not get the feeling of a whole nation of children out of control.

As for whether it is normal for a 6yo to have violent tantrums, I'd say that depends on the 6yo. Some children do still have them- my dd did- without having any special needs to account for it, they just have fiery tempers. In others it can be a sign of special needs.

With dd I always found what worked best was for me to keep some kind of (faked) monumental calm that showed her that mummy is in charge. If she got violent I would hold her and just repeat calmly "no, I will not let you hurt me". Dd is now 14 and as pleasantly behaved a teen as you could hope to see, always polite to teachers and other adults, rarely obnoxious at home. I don't think I was a rubbish mum, just because she took longer over that stage of development than some of her friends.