Gina Ford routines

[tanmu82]

Hi, I am looking for any advice/experiences from mums who have tried Gina Ford's 7am-7pm routine. my DCs are both at school full time, so when DD2 comes along, I need her to fit in with us, not us be led by her. I am thinking the 7am-7pm routine sounds like one that would work well around school hours, as well as leaving time with the DCs alone after baby has gone to bed.
Also, how easy was it to establish right from the beginning?

Any thoughts?!?

Cobblers Mathanxiety

The op has a duty to give her older children what they need too,they didn't choose to have a new baby.

Are we to all only have one child in your little world?

In the real world babies have siblings which they have to share their mother with. My twins did it from birth and were brilliant at communicating and trusting. My dd arrived 15 months later and spent much of her time in a moses basket in a play pen for her safety. All 3 of my babies had to learn to share my time and 3 more well adjusted,happy babies and children you could never hope to meet.

And pleeeeeease don't suggest I should have used a sling,I did and it nearly made me go insane as you know what having 3 babies permanently attached to me isn't my idea of fun(or theirs).

How insulting to accuse somebody trying to make all her children feel happy and loved of treating her baby like a cat.

quote from mathanxiety
"the OP seems to want to do with her older DCs, her lifestyle, and her 'I need her to fit in with us' approach."

So what do you suggest then? That I let our lives revolve around the baby instead? There will be 5 of us in this family, all with needs and wants. As reallytired and Millymae said, this baby needs to share me with 2 other children who didn't choose to have her. It doesn't mean I love her any less, or that I am going to feed her and put her out of sight. She will, however, have to 'fit in' because she is coming into a family - she is not the first and only child. I am looking at implementing a routine because I have to be able to divide my time between them all and meet all of their needs - if a GF routine gives me this (or any other one) then I'm wiling to at least try.

BTW Dh leaves for work at 7:30am and doesn't get home until 6:30pm. He is a very hands on dad, but he is out for most of the day during the week.

Seems I have already alienated some.

I have done it differently, with 5 babies no less, and ended up with 5 well adjusted, happy etc., etc. I couldn't get the hang of a sling, but did a lot of carrying of one particular DD in a back carrier. The younger babies did most of their afternoon napping in the car as I schlepped the older ones to various activities they did after school. I often carpooled so that five mums weren't dragging 15 uninvolved youngsters all over town all afternoon to activities. It was a good experience for the older DCs to use their manners, be ready on time when the lift arrived, follow someone else's car rules. Adjustment was the name of the game, for all.

All the older DCs learned to wait a bit for my attention, to entertain themselves and play together, and I became much more organised so that the amount of attention I could give them was maximised when the baby was asleep. I don't think it's a healthy message to give to older children that the household revolves around them, their schedules, their lives. Becoming more independent from their mum and developing competence at self-care is one of the primary developmental tasks of children from toddlerhood on. Babies are, by contrast, in total dependence mode.

No, the older children didn't choose to have the baby, but are they such pfbs that they can't adjust a bit when the baby arrives? From a developmental pov, it's much more important for them to learn patience and self-reliance than it is for the baby. They are both in school after all, not toddlers, and there's no question of juggling the almost equally insistent needs of twins and a newborn as MilaMae did. Why try to treat the oldest DCs as if they were the only children?

'A new baby wants to fit in, but it takes time for them to learn how.' Where does this idea come from? This is codswallop.

Nowherewoman, astute comment there.

why do you use such potentially contentious terms such as pfbs? You are assuming a lot about how I parent. My kids actually are very independent (they are 7 and almost 6)- they get themselves ready for school in the morning and help out with chores. By not neglecting them, I am talking about quality time spent together - whether that is doing homework, reading a book or just chatting. In terms of their routines, I mean school run and the one activity they do once a week. They are very happy to amuse themselves and spend a lot of time making up games together and playing quite happily.

However, after being at school all day, it is not unreasonable to expect to spend some time with me. It is such a small fraction of the day between school and bedtime - that is why I want a routine. So baby can be fed, bathed and asleep (after having had my full attention all day), leaving me an hour or so to focus on the older ones before they too have to go to bed.

[I]nowherewoman Tue 14-Sep-10 17:02:36

Really makes me laugh when a couple of people on the thread have said the routines worked, but it took 9 months before the baby was doing what they were supposed to! The routines didn't work, the baby was just doing what it would have done anyway.[/I]

And what about those for whom he routine worked stratight away?

How many times can I say this? Gins routine pre-empts a babies needs, it doesnt force a bay to 'change'. You cant force a baby to do anything.

Only took mine 3 or 4 days with all of them,seemed to be pretty common amongst my friends.

I have to say even during those days it was pretty stress free as they were fed before they were allowed to get hungry but were always ready for it iykwim. Also I stimulated them by playing/reading etc at the set times so they went down really well as were quite tired.

Prior to Gf it was one big screamfest (for me as well as them) I was totally utterly clueless(far more used to teaching 5/6 year olds). We were all soooo miserable,couldn't believe the transformation.They became so chilled,happy and "contented" very quickly.

Surely we pre-empt needs for ourselves and our growing children.

I for one eat breakfast in the morning, lunch about midday, dinner about 7pm. Often I am not massively hungry but I eat because I know I will be hungry and grumpy later if I don't and because it is good for me.

I imagine that when MasterGangly is a toddler, I will automatically give him three meals a dy rather than waiting for him to be hungry. Why is doing that for my baby so wrong?!

It really annoys me around here that whenever someone asks a question about routines, people who disagree with that come to criticise as if they are the only ones who do it right. I would never dream of going on to a thread of someone wanting advice about, say, attachment parenting or formula feeding or whatever, and 'contributing' such judgemental and sanctimonious statements as if I had all the answers.

Why do you think they won't want to spend time with their sweet little sister? Children love babies as far as I have observed anyhow, and they love to be involved in 'helping' care for the baby. My recollection of the time when I had a newborn was the endless fascination of the older DCs with their sibling, the amount of time they loved spending trying to make them laugh or smile, their delight when they succeeded. I was old hat.

Toddlerwrangler, the point Nowherewoman was making was that it wasn't the magical routine that was working, it was the baby either eventually imitating what the book suggested completely by chance, or the baby fitting in with it right from the start, also completely by chance. You can't force a baby to do anything. Most babies will have at least one perfect GF day before their first b-day. Most babies can't read, and know nothing about what GF thinks is best for them.

yes mathanxiety they will have time to play with their baby sister - why does a routine mean this won't happen? After school and before baby is put to bed there'll be plenty of time for bonding and 'helping' to take care of her.

When she goes to bed, I can then concentrate on them for the last hour or so before they go to bed.

At least, that's the plan anyway

MrsGangly tbh I don't think it is good to eat when you're not hungry; quite the opposite. I'm trying to allow my ds to follow his own hunger signals, and trying to allow myself to do the same. Ds is more successful, as I have not encouraged him to eat when he's not hungry.

I will put a different spin on starlights post -

i don't do 3 hourlyish feeds but in actual fact i get much more sleep than someone who does - newborn cluster feeds in the evenings and goes to bed for the night exhausted and full of milk. she wakes about once a night. I generally get at least 6 hours straight sleep (and would get more if i didn't stay up to MN) ..when she wakes we co-sleep (because its nice) and if i didn't have any other kids, there wouldn't be any reason not to lie in.... Ds did exactly the same when newborn.

she has put on 3lbs in 4 weeks, which i don't think is bad.

so BF on demand for me is a much better way to get sleep, as inevitably by continuing my routine (such as it is) with the other kids, she has fallen into feeding when convenient for me.

I actually see routines set by other people as bound to be less convenient than just going with the flow of your own day.

I liked the idea of Gina Ford before my DD was born but even when she got past the early cluster feeding she never went lower than 7 or 8 feeds a day. I think that's just how it is with breastfeeding for most people though I know some do manage it. I did think it was a bit strange to stipulate times for breastfeeding too, it depends so much on the baby and the baby's age and the milk supply etc.

There were some good tips in there though, like feeding on both sides and I found the weaning guide good.

Whatever kind of baby you have and whatever routine you end up with I'm sure you will be able to meet your older children's needs and balance your time fine because it's clearly really important to you, but I wouldn't worry too much if she doesn't fit GF exactly.

Mathanxiety, your posts are doing you no favours. You seem to forget that I disagree with Gina Ford's approach to parenting. It would never work with my family, but accept it works for some people.

"
'A new baby wants to fit in, but it takes time for them to learn how.' Where does this idea come from? This is codswallop."

Why do you think its codswallop?

Babies are not evil beings out to control their parents. A baby is not capable of being selfish. There is so much about the world that a small baby does not understand.

IMHO they don't need a rigid routine like Gina Ford. I think the simple rhythms of day and night, the school run, when families sit down to meals is enough to encourage a newborn baby to form an acceptable routine. the main thing is to be careful about sleep associations. Even then the "No Cry Sleep Solution" has ideas on how to get a baby to form good sleep associations without crying.

Even if you follow Dr Sears (co sleep, breatfeed on demand) to the letter many babies will form a routine naturally.

Yes there will be days when the baby feeds more often inorder to stimulate milk supply. However the baby will not think its playtime at 3 am just because you Bf on demand.

I don't think a baby has anything on his or her mind besides her physical needs, and her need to be close to her source of food. There's no way to prove a baby has any other conscious desires.

In no way did I mean to imply that a baby deliberately sets out to be contrary, to rule the roost, to turn everybody's life into a shambles, or that they're evil and bent on domination of the household -- just to point out that asserting they have any conscious desire apart from survival and what that entails is codswallop. They're not selfish as adults and older children understand the term. They are wired to be self-centered and to express their needs or they probably wouldn't survive.

I do agree with you, Reallytired, but I admire the GF thing only as a fantastic business model -- invent a problem and peddle a solution to the desperate instead of having people examine the assumptions they may have about life with babies that have contributed to the desperation.

I have many a well pawed and chewed book that I read to my older DCs with the younger ones on my lap. It doesn't all have to be so neat, so cut and dried.

I think the op's post about wanting to spend a wee bit of quality time with older kids before bedtime is completely valid. Whether you advocate routines or not, all kids like a bit of individual attention at times even if they love playing with the baby. I quite like playing a game or reading to my 8yr old when tots are tucked up in bed. he loves them but could see them far enough at times and vice versa.
Some posts on here are just really smug and righteous.

exactly reallytired - babies may just fit in nicely, they fall in with your life and the rythmns of your day.

The more your baby is exposed to the rhythms of the day and the conversation and the reading to the older DCs that goes with that, the better for the baby's verbal development too.

Have read GF sleeping book that has some valid points that I have followed (bedtime routine, up at 7am, general nap times) but certainly haven't done everything to the letter! If dd is hungry i will feed her, there is no point in the baby (and you!) getting upset for the sake of routine!. I don't know whether due to GF or her naturally but she is a good sleeper and is mostly "contented".

Personally have found gf's weaning book way more useful than the sleep one.

I don't get the anti-GF mentality - having read the book it's about helping a baby find a convenient rhythm not forcing them to fit in. It's encouraging them to be awake in the day and encouraging them to sleep at night. On reading the whole book you find your own way of doing it, the routines are a guide. Everyone I know who used GF has babies who sleep and feed well. GF even has her own website full of helpful info.

Maybe it comes from realising that babies were all either contented or not, sleeping well or not, for thousands of years before GF and will after her too. If you read carefully, everyone says they'll cherrypick what suits them and leave the rest, which is what you'd do anyway with babycare advice.