Gina Ford routines

[tanmu82]

Hi, I am looking for any advice/experiences from mums who have tried Gina Ford's 7am-7pm routine. my DCs are both at school full time, so when DD2 comes along, I need her to fit in with us, not us be led by her. I am thinking the 7am-7pm routine sounds like one that would work well around school hours, as well as leaving time with the DCs alone after baby has gone to bed.
Also, how easy was it to establish right from the beginning?

Any thoughts?!?

No, it wasNobby that said that she had to leave her baby to cry because it wasn't the 'right' time to feed him/her PCJ

OK, Milamae the quote is a little bit judgy. I'm sure pretty much every mother finds the early stages of having a baby extremely hard. I found routines too restrictive, impossible to stick to and I didn't want to let the clock rule my day. Obviously it worked for you.

I think OP the upshot of this discussion is that the GF routines suit some people and some babies- you'll just have to see what suits your baby when it arrives.
Good luck.

I bf and did Gina - why can't you do both?

Flutey - Could you please say thay SOME newborns needs to feed between 8 and 12 times per 24 hours. People telling me I HAD to bf dd1 between 8 and 12 times a day were the cause of me nearly loosing it! I never fed her more than 5 times a day - that was all she wanted - I didn't leave her to cry (and BTW Gina says a hungry baby should be fed and not left to cry!) I felt like a cpmplete failure and almost gave up bf because she wouldn't feed more often. She grew well and was happy but other peoples expectations caused me to doubt myself. She slept through the night from 12 weeks - I didn't force it, that was just her.

Some of you are just as judgey and unhelpful being negative about Gina. I didn't follow routines exactly but used the general shape.
The contented toddler book has suggestions for how to tweak the routines to fit in with an older child. This may help you tanmu82.

Yes sorry just meant that generally they do need to, and they let you know it, so long stretches of sleep and structure are often not achievable at first. I had a massive cluster feeder, so he was on the boob continuously for about 4 hrs each evening.

But I tend to be of the mind that if your baby is happy and healthy and wees / poos a lot, then you must be doing fine and not stick to rigid numbers and patterns. So if yours only did 5 and thrived, wow. Which is why i didn't get along too well with strict routines. I think people should do whatever works best for them, I just know some folk who tried so hard to get into rigid routines that they caused themselves a lot of angst, cos their baby wasn't keen on it! And then thought they were failing cos it didn't work out :(

wow - was too exhausted after work, school run, doctor's app and shopping to get back on and comment. It really does seem like mention of GF stirs up passions quite a bit!

I did read her book when my DD was born, but didn't follow the routines to the letter. In fact, I emailed GF because I had milk supply issues and she called me back and reassured me...believe you me, I had a 16 month old and a 4 week old that cried almost constantly and her call was a lifeline - when even LLL didn't seem to be able to help. Anyway, all that was a almost 6 years ago now, and I no longer have the book. Now, expecting number 3 after going so long without a 'baby' I feel a bit like I'm starting from scratch (some things you never forget, but I do think you can lose faith in yourself to cope!)

I think I'm going to buy the book again and try an establish a routine based loosely on what she recommends. I definitely will take her advice to pump the excess breastmilk when my milk first comes in, so that I avoid the supply issues I had last time.

Thanks for all the advice/opinions! I especially agree with Ladysanders that 3rd babies (in particular) HAVE to fit in - at least that's what I'm going with

I tried to get my dd1 to go into a GF routine until the day dh came home form work in the middle of the morning cos he knew something was"up" and found me crying my eyes out in the darkened bedroom cos she wouldn't sleep at the appointed time.

I had bad PND (this was when we realised) and I needed inpatient treatment for it. Trying the GF routines made me much much worse and my psychiatrist told me that reading a book rather than learning to read my baby was what tipped me over from community to hospital treatment.

What I don't like about CLBB is her assertion that it WILL work for EVERY baby. It won't. It can be verging on dangerous.

I followed GF routines with all mine (and bf). In the first few weeks I didn't really follow her exact feeding / napping schedule, but I did keep in mind that if the baby had had a good feed then there was a fair chance that if she was crying within 2 hrs of the last feed it might be because of something else (e.g. tiredness) rather than immediately putting her back to the breast. I also would generally put them down to sleep within 2 hrs of waking. By around 5 weeks I started to gently ease towards the nap times she suggests and they really worked for all of mine - and once the naps were in place the feeds just sort of slot into place. By 6 / 7 weeks they were pretty much textbook GF and all slept through the night early. You have to adjust the routines to work for you though - e.g. all 3 of mine always needed a feed around 5pm and would never have made it through until after their bath without that.

One thing I would say is that I found GF hardest to follow with no.3, mainly due to DD1 and DD2 being at school and nursery and the routine simply didn't fit around drop off and pick up times, so I had to work out a routine for him that did fit. I didn't find it too hard to work out a good routine that suited him though as I think GF gave me the building blocks and of course by DC3 I was pretty confident about reading the signs of what a baby needs and wants and how long he was likely to go between feeds and naps etc and so plan things accordingly. Also i really do think that a third baby is often super adaptable and happy to be toted around as you and the other children get on with your lives (harder now he's a toddler and has strong views on what he does and doesn't want to be doing!)

One note of caution - I would be a bit careful about following her expressing routine religiously - it's exhausting!! I used to express fairly regularly in the early days, maybe every other day in the morning - generally after the first morning feed.

""it is not easy to let your baby cry for half an hour because it isnt [sic] the right time to give him milk yet."

Nowhere does Gina Ford suggest leaving babies to cry if they are hungry. It is fine if her book isn't for you, but so many people have never read it and just criticise a caricature of what she says.

just to add, it's not 4 hourly feeds to start with, I think the GF plan is to catch them before they're too hungry.

OP - she does a book for someone with a baby and an older child, might be worth getting that one instead of her standard routine book if you're going down that path.

weegiemum - are you me? I spent hours crying in a darkened bedroom with a howling baby doing GF. My Ds would never eat the right amount at the right times or sleep at the right times. I felt totally tied to the house, at mercy of these horrid routines. I nearly lost my sanity doing it tbh. I burnt the book in a special ceremony. It was very cathartic.

I can see it does work with some children, just obviously not mine.

I had DC2 a few months ago and was also concerned about not giving enough attention to DS, who's at school. I'm however a bit of a "hugger mum" rather than a "scheduler", so GF does not come naturally. However, at around 4 weeks I started following her bedtime routines and also try to vaguely follow her nap routines during the day. I can't say it works great with BF at all, but the betime routine at 7 helps and then gives us time with DS in the evenings. As we have to be up around 6.30-7am anyway to get DS to school, we'll start the day at the "right" time without even trying.

I was just going to say - yes, I have a copy of the Baby with Toddler book and found it useful. (Also it's based on the updated version of CLB so has the SIDS recommendations etc).

I was also going to say - it's semantics really but with Gina she may not say "feed your baby 8-12 times a day" but the earliest routines do include a lot of "split feeds" - eg at 5pm and then at 6pm this is allegedly just one feed, not two close together. And she says feed them if they are hungry so no one should be leaving a baby to cry with hunger because they are "following Gina".

I found the GF guide very useful when faced with newborn twins and not much baby raising experience. I still think it is crazy when GF is mentioned that people REALLY try to follow her timetable to the minute.

Starting the day at the same time, having a bedtime routine and being able to predict when a baby is likely to be hungry or tired so you can arrange time for yourself or other children just doesn't sound like a cruel system to me. Certainly in the twin book she says growth spurts will occur which mean you need to feed more, my boys slept about twice as much as the babies in her plan and I still felt they were in a good routine. I didn't expect them to do 7pm-7am until they were ready, so wasn't surprised when that took over a year.

Sadly I often had to leave one boy to cry while I dealt with his brother - but never because GF told me to.

my third is 4 months, i think i would have gone mad by now trying to adhere to a timetable. there's plenty to beat yourself up about when you have children, why create a situation where you are likely to fail?

i just make sure each time i feed the baby that she has both sides rather than ad-hoc short feeds and that works well. Sometimes there's lots of feeds, other days not so many, i just follow the babies needs and it's going well so far!

Yeah, I think GF is a bit like marmite- you either love her or hate her!

A note of caution tanmu- it's now generally recommended that you don't express very early on as your supply needs to establish itself naturally. Kellymom.com will give you lots of tips about this.

I hadn't heard that crikey, I'll mosey on over right now and take a look at that link....

tanmu82 - I followed GF routines loosely with DS2 and found it ok. Like others have already said you will eventually fall into a routine with all three children that suits you all, its a case of having to.

I am also a fan of the GF book on potty training too and the sleep guide book, all have useful parts to them.

I have her book and found it useful as a guide although I cant follow the routines to the letter mainly because I am too disorganized!. I do have a daily routine but it involves more feeding and as much as I tried I cant get the hang of the breastpump I can sit there for ages and never get as much as I am supposed to according to the routine. I also read the baby whisperer which was different but I found it a bit wishy washy so havent found my perfect book yet (!) but take bits from all of them

Tanmu, of course it's possible to get your baby into a Gina Ford 7 to 7 routine early on. We managed to get ours into such a routine by 13 weeks and we worked on it from birth. Our baby was pretty easy though.

But, many/most people here on Mumsnet are scathing/sceptical about GF so you won't get alot of support/advice on here about GF. Sorry.

I love Mumsnet but when I was trying to get my baby into a routine using GF I did NOT come to Mumsnet for advice. I kept quiet about it as much as I could.

We used GF for both children; was a bit sceptical but thought I would try it. Had very little parenting experience and also had pretty bad PND with dd, so fround the routines actually very helpful and reassuring. Maybe I had 2 "Gina babies", but both thrived on the routine and have always had their lunchtime long nap, and slept through all night from 6-8 weeks with dd (I used to wake her for a dreamfeed) and 12 wweeks with ds. They are 2y5m and 11m now and are happy and healthy and sleep like a dream.

I appreciate that such routines are not for everyone, but it's up to you to try it and see if it works for your family. I found the GF Baby and Toddler book helpful in combining routines and settling the new arrival in whilst minimising jealousy.

Btw, her advice on expressing can be useful in both maximising supply and enabling others or yourself to give expressed milk. I found this a big part of both little ones sleeping well at night - they both wolfed down a large bottle of expressed milk before bed. I'm an obstetrician and there is no evidence at all that early expressing is harmful - we recommend it all the time for mums who have preterm or sick babies in SCBU!

Good luck, and don't be put off by the doom mongers...

Thanks Orissiah and eeky I think I'm going to give it a go - even the expressing, as I have tried not having a routine (DS, because I was young and it didn't occur to me - lucky he was an easy baby and we had no problems), and with DD I tried, but only after months of struggling and having supply issues (she was also low birth weight, though full term).

I don't know many people who are GF fans, most seem to just go with baby, and most of those I know seem to struggle when they have more than one using this approach, as baby tends to take up most of their time and energy. I know this isn't the case for everyone, but from my experience of my friends, this has been overwhelmingly the case - my sister being the most recent example (she has a new ss and new baby). I am therefore keen to avoid this!

Just to clarify, GF advocates expressing as well as bf, not instead of it. Of course a bay is more efficient at getting milk than a pump. The point of her advice is that expressing can get any last bit of milk once baby has finished feeding, thus stimulating the breast to supply a little more at next feed. If done before a feed, or from the contralateral breast, for example at first feed when breast usually fuller than other time, this stimulats the breast again to maintain that level of supply. Once you understand the physiology it's simple (and amazing!).

Personally I expressed early with my first as I was sitting an all day exam when she was 5 weeks old, so knew she would need to take milk from a bottle - and I wanted it to be breastmilk reather than formula. Nipple confusion is much less common that purported; in fact more of a problem is that if babies are exclusively breast fed and you are persuaded to wait to try a bottle until they are 2, 3, 4, 6 months (usually by a well-meaning but ill-informed midwife or HV), the chances of them taking the bottle at that stage are much lower than if done in the first 6 weeks. Can I advise, though, considering hiring an industrial strength double pump if you expressing to build up a freezer store, for example. The difference between that and a single hand pump is astounding!

I know expressing isn't for all breastfeeders, though - as with most things, you do what you feel is right for you.

Hi,

I am afraid I am a Gina-mummy, and proud. I must say though that what worked best for me was to read he baby whisperer and CLB books and take the bits of both that worked for us. On first read they seem poles appart, but they can work together!

Of COURSE Alf diddnt stick to her timetable - babys just dont work like that. But what a 'Gina Day' does is offer a structure of sleep, feed and play that sets the best possible scene for a good nights kip (for baby AND mum): Enough food in tummy, and just enough sleep in the day to prevent over tierdness but leave enough ZZZZ's in the tank to go trhough to morning witout midnight raves!!

If Gina said 'nap at 11.30' then about 11am I would loook for cues for Alf being tierd (turning head to one side, ribbing eyes, a bit grumpy) and he would go to bed when he needed. Her routine also helps to PREVENT babies getting to the point that they have to cry to tell mum they are hungry. Alf very, very rarely cried for a feed - the Gina routine helped kee his little tummy full and let me know when he would probably want another bottle. If he wanted feeding before his 'gina slot' then he was fed - but this rarely happened.

What I am trying to say is that, used as a 'rough guide to the day with a baby' (rather then gospel), Gina was a lifesave for a clueless first time mum!

tanmu82 congratuations on your pregnancy and good luck with your baby.

There are many good ways to bring up children and provided the Mum is happy then the baby will be happy.

I am completely the opposite to the Gina camp. Gina is just too rigid for me. I would rather have my baby asleep in the sling and go for a walk with my son after than stick my daughter in a darked room with the blackout blind down.

I like the no cry sleep solution by Elizabeth Pantley. My dd slept through 7 to 7 from 6 weeks, although she wakes in the night now at 16 months because of teeth.

Second time children have to fit into the routine of the first child. I found with the school run and making meals for my son that my daughter formed her own routine that fitted in with our family's.

Second time mothers are also more confident. You know what works for you.

I have to say I'm a CLB fan through and through, I recommend it to everyone.
I used it with all the babies I looked after as a nanny & have followed it with my DD too.

Of course there are days when it doesn't go to plan, but mostly it works like a charm.

AMost of the negativity on this thread seems to be from people who clearly haven't read the book properly, you never let your baby get too hungry & it's based on a 3hourly feeding pattern.

The key aspects are to get the most feeds during the day so they will not need feeding all night long & to teach them how to fall asleep alone. Who doesn't want that for their child.

My DD slept through at 13 weeks and continues to do so, she travels well as we stick to the routine.

You can easily adapt the routines to suit your personal needs as long as you stick to the core principals.

I've never bothered with the getting up at 6.30 to shower & eat