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Would gay marriage undermine the exalted status of heterosexual marriage?

195 replies

Pruni · 09/06/2005 15:07

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WideWebWitch · 22/06/2005 07:30

and because I disagree doesn't mean I have an impoverished understanding, I think it's pretty patronising to assume that it does.

tigermoth · 22/06/2005 07:36

Is Sarah is talking about the the impossibility of her condoning the actual marriage ceremony or the whole partnership?

Nightynight · 22/06/2005 07:38

I agree with bloss, and I think its a sad reflection of society as a whole, that a post as mild as Sarah's can generate such a relatively extreme reaction.

batters · 22/06/2005 08:25

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edam · 22/06/2005 09:56

No, I don't think marriage will be devalued if gay people are allowed to marry - why would it? If two people love each other and want to make a legal committment and public declaration then that's lovely, no matter what their gender. And apart from all the other difficulties in the way of gay families, doesn't the unmarried status of the parents cause problems for the children in inheritance terms? We kids of marriages can inherit something like £250,000 tax-free AND have automatic rights if our parents die without making a will. The child of a gay couple will have no rights over the estate of the non-biological parent which strikes me as desperately unfair.

I'm not sure divorce is easy, tbh. Having seen some close up. But if it was made more difficult that would be very dangerous for women in particular stuck in violent or abusive relationships. I don't think we want to go back to the days when women were automatically dependent on men and second-class citizens. There's enough gender inequality still around without re-introducing some of the stuff we've managed to get rid of.

I never ever thought I'd actually want to get married, being a feminist and all that and having seen my parents' hideous divorce (and my father's horrid second marrige). Shocked myself when, after living with then-dp for two years, I think, I suddenly realised I did want to marry him - to make a public declaration of our love for each other and make it 'official'.

Mind you, we had a very un-traditional wedding - I would have liked a church ceremony because although I'm not uncritical of it I was brought up CofEand love the wedding service. Would have been very happy to promise to cherish dh! But he is allergic to churches (some very dodgy religious relatives - not CofE but enough to put him off religion completely) so we ended up with a civil wedding followed by a pagan ceremony. Which sounds odd for someone who would have been happy with the CofE but it relfected another important part of my admittedly confused belief system (although I'm not a practising pagan, far from it).

What surprised me was how moving I found the registry office service (this was before you were allowed to marry in licensed venues). I had thought of it as merely a piece of paper and the true wedding as the pagan ceremony where we were making some real promises to each other. Yet the words we spoke at the civil ceremony, even though they were legalistic and not beautiful (as Cranmer's English and the King James Bible are), really meant something when I stood up with dp/dh. I cried!

The pagan ceremony was meaningful and significant. I did feel blessed by our guests and by the pagan gods and goddesses - basically nature worship and we got married somewhere where that seems very real (the Peak District). The land, which I love, is very pagan in some way. Can't really explain it.

Out of my parents and immediate family (sisters and their families) we are the only people who are actually married. And we've been together longer than my parents were. Yet I don't think, given time, that my sister's relationships will necessarily be any less important. Certainly their partners are the fathers of their children - what's more important than that?

And I don't see any evidence, from my own friends who admittedly may not be representative, that people go into marriage thinking they'll get divorced if it works out. Most of our friends lived together in their 20s and got married late 20s and are still together nearly a decade later. In fact I only know (well) two people my age who are divorced, strangely.

I had a theory that people of my generation (mid 30s) were the first where divorce among our parents was widespread and therefore we are more likely to stay together as a reaction to what the previous generation did. But listening to other MNers maybe that's not something that applies to the wider world, just my social circle.

As for children of married parents 'doing better' IIRC that was measured by things like academic achievement and job status. But I'm not sure how well the research was designed or how well the results were reported. And it must be biased by the fact that umarried parents are more variable - if you compared unmarried parents in stable long-term relationships with married parents I'm not sure you'd see much difference. Divorce hits people financially and poverty is linked to 'poor' outcomes in that sense, so comparing married with unmarried/divorced parents is bound to show 'poor' outcomes, I guess.

bloss · 22/06/2005 10:18

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bloss · 22/06/2005 10:54

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batters · 22/06/2005 12:46

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Pruni · 22/06/2005 15:48

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horseshoe · 22/06/2005 16:58

God chose an "UNMARRIED" mother to give birth to his son.

Therefore did God impose marriage or did religion? If you agree it was religion, who are we mere mortals to say who is entitled to marry....

And who can comment on love when it's such a personal thing to each and every one of us.

There's only one judge in this world and it aint us lot.

bloss · 23/06/2005 04:58

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bloss · 23/06/2005 05:07

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horseshoe · 23/06/2005 08:46

"Some people think that God has made his views about who can get married VERY clear. Their objection to gay marriage is not that they personally object to it, but that it is contrary to God's laws".

My point was bloss that again you have put "SOME PEOPLE THINK". My point was merely that regardless of what "Some People Think" God is our only judge and he will decide come judgement day!

I believe in God and I have my own relationship with him NOT with the Christian Church.

Going by the "Bible" any declaration of love made publicly is classed as a marriage. There was none of these legal implications that the church and law have imposed.

God made each and everyone of us and that included making some of us Gay....yet according to the "CHRISTIAN BIBLE" some will interpret even practising a gay relationship as against "Gods Laws"!! Yet when the CEO suddenly state they will allow gay marriages, suddenly it's OK

Im sorry Bloss but your quoting the Christian religion to me.....nothing more.

bloss · 23/06/2005 08:58

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horseshoe · 23/06/2005 09:15

Your entitled to your own beliefs of course.

My original post was not directed at you or anyone for that matter it was just to point out that at the end of the day we can believe what we like theres still only one judge!!

Your beliefs or my beliefs are nothing to do with it!!!

Going back to the original question, it depends on what your values of marriage are! I personally dont hold much value on marriage, mainly because I see it as a Christian process and as I have stated before i am not Christian. However saying this, I still think it is made easier legally to get married knowing that if it doesn't work out i'll divorce which in a sense devalues the sacrement of marriage anyway.

So the question of a Gay marriage devaluing marriage should be extended to include the increase in divorce, civil marriages - since marriage fundamentally derives from a religious ceromony and so forth.

IMO it's the bigwigs sitting at the top of the COE and legal system making their own rules when they fancy who are devaluing the marriage process....not the individuals who get married.

Like I said....who are we to say who can fall in love!

Pruni · 23/06/2005 18:50

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bloss · 24/06/2005 01:47

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horseshoe · 24/06/2005 09:25

Well I have to say Bloss, I have the upmost respect for you and your decisions.....

I have in the past been to many churches searching for something I could believe in, but like your experience with the choir, I found one too many people within the church, hyocritical.

Many were "look at me" types and one too many times I had people coming up to me saying "I believe god is saying to you"..... I just thought "you know what? If god wants to talk to me, why does he do it through other people".

As it was I do believe I had a very strong message from God in the form of a dream.....

I think this is what made me turn away from the religion as a whole and follow my own faith ....... I like to believe that God speaks to me everyday in one way or another...

But as I say....I'm glad to see someone who has the conviction to stand up to the whole of their religion and not just picking the parts they decide suits them.

bloss · 24/06/2005 10:52

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Pruni · 25/06/2005 20:19

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