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Would gay marriage undermine the exalted status of heterosexual marriage?

195 replies

Pruni · 09/06/2005 15:07

Message withdrawn

OP posts:
Fennel · 09/06/2005 16:28

children from households with lots of books do better too. so better not do too much clutter clearing or donating books to Oxfam.

Tinker · 09/06/2005 16:29

And lastly, he is vehement that studies exist showing that children from families where the parents have a marriage certificate are statistically more likely to do better than children from families where there are two unmarried parents. Have you ever heard this? I find it hard to believe.

Have heard this also but assume that of the unstable relationships, they are more likely to be from the unmarried parents. Hence, more disruptive relationships. Typing one handedly here so not explaining it very well. If relationship is stable and committed, doubt there would be any statistically significant difference

ninah · 09/06/2005 16:29

'do' what better tho?
macrame? egg and spoon? astrophysics?

Mosschops30 · 09/06/2005 16:29

Message withdrawn

ninah · 09/06/2005 16:30

a marriage cert alone isn't proof of stability

Tinker · 09/06/2005 16:31

a marriage cert alone isn't proof of stability

agree

Fennel · 09/06/2005 16:31

Tinker, yes, that's what I'd like to see. there is a difference between "types" of cohabitee - those of us who are in long term relationships and just pig-headed and committed about not getting married, and those who just haven't seriously considered it or aren't in a stable enough relationship for both sides to agree to it.

it would be interesting to see a study which compared these. not that the results would make me get married anyway, the dds will just have to drop a few grades for my stubbornness

ninah · 09/06/2005 16:32

or their egg and spoon perhaps

alicatsg · 09/06/2005 16:32

MI - re your q about working at a marriage - what I mean by that is not walking out cos DH/DP forgets your birthday, or making his favourite food every so often even tho it isn't your own. More about caring about being together rather than turning tail at first less than perfect moment which unfortunately can and does happen. I don't mean take abuse and just work harder to have perfect marriage.

not sure I made any sense there, brain is mush today.

munz · 09/06/2005 16:34

personally I think gay marriage is OK, Mainly cos I have an uncle who's married (gay) and also divorced. if it makes them happy do it.

not to speak ill of my generation but I think (a lot of) young ppl go into marriage thinking well if it doesnt work then I can get divorced, marriage for me is for life not just for 10 mins or waht ever.

of course i'm not tarnishing all young ppl there, just that's how a lot think and also have the view of well why should I work at it?

SaintGeorge · 09/06/2005 16:34

Only skimmed thread so apologies if repeating anyone -

Question 1 to 4 - answers as per Twiglett

As to his last statement - I've heard this but don't 100% believe it. I think kids do best when they have a stable, loving environment. That could mean any number or combination of parents/step-parents/carers, with or without marriage certificates - as long as it is stable and loving.

Blu · 09/06/2005 16:36

I am put off marriage in it's current form because of the mish mash as I see it as described below - and I would v much echo Batters.

As far as 'committment' and working at it, I think that unless you have a strong moral connection to the idea of marriage - religious maybe, or other cultural factors, then it is quite simply a choiuce as to whether you want to enter into soething which you view as binding, or not. I am v dubious about promising to love someone in perpuity, i don't think you can do that, in all honesty. you can put youself under contract to someone, but why would you?

OBVIOUSLY most of us who planned a family o children that involves more than one parent will put effort into maintaining that plan, buut I don't see anything morally superior in sticking to something you hate for the sake of a promise which you couldn't guarantee to keep anyway (in terms of love). There may be a practical value - you may choose not to upset a partner who still loves you, you may choose to stay for the sake of the kids, and make a v good job of it too, but I am with MI in that I find 'committment' per se and with no practical value, an over-rated virtue.

Windermere · 09/06/2005 16:36

McMudda - I am not deeply religious and my husband is not religious at all. We got married because we wanted to commit to each for life and to make that commitment in front of our families. I don't see why I have less right to marry than someone who attends church on a Sunday.

batters · 09/06/2005 16:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blu · 09/06/2005 16:40

Actually, can I change my use of the word 'committment'? I think that to get the best out of anything you have to be committed and work at it - compromise at work, be sensitive and supportive and maybe show tough love in a freindship, get on with the decorating to enjoy your house to the full, etc etc.

I think I mean I don't see the value of promising to 'stay together through gritted teeth even though I am miserbale'.

Fennel · 09/06/2005 16:41

On the issue of children of cohabitees doing "less well", besides the argument suggested by Tinker below, I have another possible cause.

maybe by not getting married, and being the sort of people who are not getting married, we are communicating to our children a belief that it's good to question the status quo, and not necessarily to conform. whether that is in terms of morality, marital behaviour, or societally definitions of success. So maybe our children are less likely to "succeed" in the standard, societal understanding of that term.

koalabear · 09/06/2005 16:41

Arguing that marriage will be devalued if gay people are allowed to marry, is like arguing that the £20 that I have in my purse will be worth less than £20 if you have £20 in your purse too.

I don't believe that divorce is easy. I do think that it is very sad, and I think a some people use it as an easy way out. However, thank god that we can have divorce so that women don't have to stay in abusive marriages because they have no other choice. I overheard a women trying on her wedding dress at the same time as me - she said "oh well, if this marriage doesn't work out, i'll wear the other one next time" - she was serious

I think that some people tend not to think about marriage as a long term commitment, but rather as a big party for a day, and forget about the actual act of commiting yourself to another person everyday for the rest of your life. Marriage something you do, not something you have - but I've said this before.

It seems to me that most of society is instant gratification - "take away", "fast food", immediate, now, buy now and don't pay for six months, buy one get one free, instant gratification, instant credit, mobile phones, text messaging, internet, interactive tv etc etc. (not that all of this is bad, just reflective of where we are at). Therefore, I feel that marraige is sometimes viewed this way - and thrown away if it doesn't instantly provide what we want.

And lastly, I believe that if a child is secure and loved, whether inside or outside a marriage, then that is the best we can do. They are no formulas and can't be studied as such - there are too many variables. My cousin came from a loving family home where his parents were childhood sweethearts, and the dad went out to work and came home at 4 pm everyday, and the mother stayed home, and he went to private catholic school etc etc. He's in jail for double homicide. Sometimes, stuff just happens which can't be blamed on anyone else.

motherinferior · 09/06/2005 16:42

Blu, you sum it up perfectly.

motherinferior · 09/06/2005 16:42

Blu, you sum it up perfectly.

batters · 09/06/2005 16:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alicatsg · 09/06/2005 16:43

just to be fair - I'm not anti-divorce, and I agree that if a relationship breaks down then there should be a way of getting out of it. I just think that sometimes people (including my father and my friends) are too quick to take drastic action rather than address the problem.

am shutting up now as am coming over all Tory and I'm not that!

munz · 09/06/2005 16:44

kb say's it all really, and it's sad ppl think like that about marriage. it's to be worked at. I had a talk with a friend of mine who said well why should I work at a relationship - it should work for me - WTF!!! that's what I mean about young ppl.

Blackduck · 09/06/2005 16:52

I do hate the view some people have that if you are not married you aren't committed, and that it is easier to walk out - oh yeah, we have all the financial entanglements as a married couple, all we wouldn't have to go through is the annulment of the marriage - all the other cr*p would still have to be dealt with...

alicatsg · 09/06/2005 16:58

agree bduck - in many ways a marriage is easier to end than a mortgage

paolosgirl · 09/06/2005 17:04

For us, living together wasn't an option really. Marriage for me is about stability, commitment and a public declaration of our love for each other and for our desire to bring up a family within that. I'd have been very offended if my husband said to me that I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you - but I don't want to marry you.
I strongly believe that gay couples should be able to marry. They have every right to want to be married for the same reason that the rest of us do.