do you think that it's possible to have a sensible conversation about awareness re falling fertility in the light of the other thread....

[Heathcliffscathy]

sorry about the humungous thread title...

but do you think we could talk about the question of putting off career to have babies/being aware of falling fertility as you age without resort to handbags at dawn?

i know it is a terribly emotional thing for all of us (me included massively). but is there room for discussing whether there should be a cultural seachange back to having your children younger...to avoid the pain and heartache of waiting til you're in your forties to start and struggling?

oh I don't know Anna

I have a lovely friend who would like to find someone and just never seems to be able to.

I also think loads of women seem to hit their mid 30s and really panic about not having a partner (have seen this in 2 of my friends - it's mainly a fertility driven thing, that they haven't had children and know they need to get a move on). Men sense that panic a mile off and steer clear (unless they want them too!).

I don't think it's as easy as it seems!

I just think that sometimes, people just get cought up in the rat race - mortgage, demanding job, get a bit materialistic (don't we all), don't have time to meet the right guy (I don't think that women are more fussy, it's just that there are so many to choose from!), and let's face it, we want to live a bit. I studied, travelled a lot, got a bit drunk, emigrated, met someone and when he proposed, I almost fainted as I never thought I'd ever get married. When I told my best friend she seriously thought it was a wound up.

Anyway, I got pregnant 7 years into relationship, and yes the pregnancy was an accident. A forgotten piece of hardware at a new year's party. Second baby was planned, although I got pregnant the first month we tried, and I was still breastfeeding DS1. I was 34 with DS1.

But many of my friends are having problems concieving and I can see just how difficult this is for them. They are all my age or a bit older, and they all say 'I wish I did it earlier'. But to be fair, now looking back and looking at how happy we are, I wish we'd done it earlier as well.

I think in so many cases it's the blokes' fault. We can't meet the right guy, he doesn't want to settle down, doesn't want children now, blah blah wimp.

I think the newspapers should start talking about how male fertility and performance can decline with age, and maybe we'd see a sudden babyboom.

I'm not saying it's easy to find the right man - just as it isn't easy to find the right house, or job. But I think too many women romanticise marriage (or finding a life partner) - that somehow it just ought to happen easily for it to be right - when in fact it is going to be a lot of hard work to find true love!

I found this article interesting too (from a few months back)

is your career making you infertile?

Oh I definitely had that career-woman infertility - I didn't menstruate for four years when working really hard! And lots of my colleagues were in the same position - nearly all of them needed some kind of help to get pregnant.

Well I think it's the blokes who don't want to settle down, and are scarred of commitment. Haven't you heard that line before?? I have a couple of friends who were desparate for good, solid relationship, kept on looking, finding 'good for nothing' blokes who didn't want to settle down, and one of them finally found a really nice guy (he's a kiwi, they've just moved back there) and she got pregnant pretty quickly.

Another friend had been looking looking looking, finally met the right uy but she's 40 and she said that she has now given up the idea. Yes, she had a good career but she 'blames' not meeting the right guy. Some people don't romanticise marriage, they just want to be in a relationship before getting pregnant.

BonsoirAnna, if you keep meeting the wrong guys it's also bloddy hard work.

Yes - the comparison figures are interesting because the overall profile increases by age group (suggesting women want babies later), although it doesn't increase in the 40+ age group.

These figures would be (just) before the introduction of the pill.

Births for women of maternal age 40+:

1961: 23,300 (representing 3%)
2007: 25,400 (representing 4%)

Absolutely, leningrad, we all know women who have had children later in life, either recently or further back. The thing is, if you're not trying to conceive the information doesn't seem to 'stick in'. I know that I had no interest in those issues when I was in my 20s, or early 30s. I remember saying to people asking me if I wanted kids 'well I've got another 10 years to change my mind'. I could have easily fallen into the category of people trying to conceive, especiallly as I had chlamydia in my 20s which can seriously damage the fallopian tubes - something else that many people are not aware of.

i think this discussion is part of a broader issue about how women have been let down (in many, not all, ways) by changes in our society.

IMO, the blokes are still very much on top in that they can pick and choose when they procreate. As more of them decide to postpone it and be teenagers into their 30s, their female peers are being left behind without partners or the chance to have babies.

Totally agree with posters who mention men wasting women's fertile years, etc.

i also find it interesting that throughout this thread there are women who say we must all be idiots if we didn't understand how our fertility worked, and then you have mrsboogie, et al, who are still convinced age is just a number and seem to doubt the statistics.

i'd also point out that 21% of births to over 35s may sound like a lot but the vast majority of those will be women having their second or third or fourth child at that age, having already proven their fertility and hence having a better chance than a first-timer at that age.

I've been thinking about this and realised that I am close to two men who have done the "wasting the fertile years" thing. In both cases they are both lovely people and actually didn't end the relationships because the women that they were with had personal problems - they felt that they would be bastards to dump a woman when she was going through a bad time. Which I suppose is a bit ironic, considering that both women wanted children.

I'm with foxinsocks -- had no idea people planned things to anything like this level.

I realised in my mid-twenties that I wanted babies (had always assumed I would have them in theory, but at about 25 it suddenly became real to me, as it were). I have a big Catholic family, having babies is what people do. It didn't seem hugely alien to me as a concept.

So we did the 'not quite as careful about contraception as we could be' thing (as an alternative to making a mature decision, arf) and got pg with dd1 straight away. Among our peer-group (over-educated professional types) having a baby at 26 is tantamount to being a teenage mum -- I do remember watching people's reactions when we announced it and realising that they didn't know whether to say "congratulations" or "bad luck!". We had naff-all money (dh wsa doing teacher training) and a one-bedroom flat, but it was fine. In retrospect I think it was easier for us than people who started later because although the material circs were harder, our expectations were much lower. We didn't really have a lifestyle to lose, we just all muddled through somehow.

Not sure what I'd say to my dc about it all, though again they have grown up with babies around which I think makes it all seem more part of their lives. Dd1 (14) is very much in a teenage girl 'ohmigod a baby, so cuuute, aren't they lovely, oooh it's so sweet, I want one" mode. But she wants to get her degree first. [phew]

If there isn't enough awareness re declining fertility is it really possible to have a campaign.

I wonder what shape it would take, a few personal stories in the broadsheet from women who wished they'd started earlier?, a tv campaign?

Whatever you do it will be a statement on how someone other than the individuals involved is prepared to influence something as personal as ttc

And would it just annoy women who are building their careers, many women aren't starting families because they don't have a partner this will just exasperate and make them tense.

Perhaps the campaign should be aimed at men, don't make her wait.

I agree that an awareness campaign about declining fertility should not exclusively be aimed at women - and in fact there is quite a lot of evidence emerging about men's declining fertility. But I cannot see why we should shrink from raising awareness of what is merely scientific fact because of fear of inducing guilt or anxiety. People need facts in order to make informed decisions.

I'm finding this debate very interesting as it's a subject close to my heart.
I'm 38 and have 2 ds's - one 4, one 4 months.
DS1 took about 6 months to conceive - which seemed like an age as I'd had a mc and a wildly ticking biological clock.
DS2 took about 2 years to conceive - with the help of the turkey baster and massive lifestyle changes - no booze for DH, going part time for me etc etc.
I found the whole very difficult, though my problems were minor compared to many people I know.
I went through a phase of beating myself up and thinking I'd lived my life the wrong way - ie spent my 20s/early 30s working/boozing/clubbing rather than breeding.
However, the truth is that this is a load of bollocks. I didn't even want kids until I was about 32 and remember nearly having a nervous breakdown when I was 25 and thought I was pregnant.
Yes, I had a partner in my 20s, but I treated him very badly and would have been very resentful of a child - I remember thinking how awful it would be to have a baby because I would have to give up smoking!
I didn't meet DH until I was 30 and since he is 3 years younger than me I thought it was unfair to force kids on him before he was 30 - he was 31 when DS1 was born, which is quite young for a dad these days!
I am not an especially materialistic person, but I have used the money I earned in my younger days wisely, which means I don't have to chase a high salary now, nor bully DH about money all the time. I have a long career behind me which means I have good contacts and can get flexible work - very hard in the industry I work in.
Yes,I'm a bit long in the tooth to have young kids, but I'm not that ancient. Yes, I've had some fertility problems, which were nasty, but by getting help (on the NHS and brilliant) we overcame them.
I hope I don't sound hideously smug and pleased with myself - all I'm trying to communicate is that there is no point in beating yourself up re: your choices. I also think the only people who listen to fertility warnings are either people who have had problems (like me) or women who are desperate to have kids. I know I would have ignored any warnings about declining fertility, just as I ignored warnings about smoking, unprotected sex, binge drinking and taking drugs.
I could also write pages about the role of men in this issue - which is absolutely integral to the whole debate - but I think it would make me too cross

Babycentre has an article on older motherhood : It focuses a lot of "the advantages of being an older mother" and the statement: "Birth statistics over recent decades show a huge swing in favour of delaying parenthood until our thirties and beyond." makes it all sound so easy!

Given the number of posts to this effect should we talk about why people are taking so long to find the right man?

Is it a case of being too fussy? Women being bought up nowadays with too high expectations?

Is having a career getting in the way of finding a man?

Is it that we are now being more conditioned to think that 'getting a man' isn't as important as it used to be, it's all about friends and having a good time 'e.g. Sex and the City, yes they were all looking for men but the overarching theme was about friendship between woman and how that came first). Which is all lovely and all well and good, and we don't want to hark back to a hundred, two hundred years ago when a woman's sole occupation was to find a man to support her. However it is an undeniable fact that a man is needed if you want to have kids, and/or at least a suitable partner with whom you want to share the burden experience if you are in a same-sex couple.

Also, why are these men who woman are with in good time not wanting to 'settle down' till so late? What can be done to try and change that?

I am 36, and in retrospect I would've started TTC a few years earlier in my late twenties, as now having problems TTC 2. I had my first at 33.

I got carried away with achieving and earning money, which I never had in childhood. We waited to be financially stable, but I think we could have and would have managed earlier.

We were emotionally ready about seven years ago, but I guess not thinking about the possibility of any problems.

I have two friends whose relationships broke up in their mid thirties, and I guess it would be difficult to rush into another relationship for the sake of diminishing fertility.

A friend of mine is just divorcing her husband because he has suddenly decided, after 3 years of marriage, that he doesn't want kids.
She is 36.
I want to slap him

I wasn't emotionally ready to have kids until my 30s.

I am 36, and when I was at school the girls in the upper stream were indoctrinated with get a good education, get a job and relationships and babies can follow after. We were expected to go to university and follow careers and not be over reliant on men.

Our sex education lessons always drummed into us the importance of not falling pregnant. It was never explicitly mentioned that fertility would decrease drastically as early as 35. The only risks we were informed about was down syndrome rates increasing with maternal age.

I chose to have my children early (27 and 30) because I have a life long medical condition and I knew that for me it would be safer. I did not consider infertility, although it actually did take me two years to conceive dd1. My periods were irregular, and I was terrified of infertility when it took me two years.

I do think that sex education could be improved in schools by giving young people all the facts. In fact, university medical services should be educating young women in particular. I have a friend who is my age and is a GP. She is still in the terrified of getting pregnant mindset. She says that she probably does not want children, but acknowledges that she might change her mind. I do worry for her and for the lovely man in life.

Great thread.
I wish I could believe that making men aware of the problem as well as women was the answer, but probably the arseholes who are refusing to commit will just respond by going out with even younger women.

There's no easy answer is there.... I was lucky enough to meet dh when I was 31 and get pg without problems so I'm about to have my third at 37 as well as having an established career, but I'm paying for it now in terms of the difficulty of combining a young family with the high expectations placed on you at this stage in your career. Part of me desperately wishes I'd waited 4 or 5 years to get to a stronger position in my career first. I'd be able to afford a nanny then as well.

Perhaps there are a greater number of women who don't have a choice rather than do. It is because men don't want children yet, or it is hard to even find a partner etc

..rather than that they are too focussed on a career.

It is certainly the case ime, friends are not deliberately waiting - they know they need to start ttc they just aren't in the position to do so.

I'm ok with a purely facts based campaign, stats (maybe handed out when you have a pap smear, aimed at men and women). BUt not ok with a return to the stereotype of career woman as own worst enemy etc etc.

The best bet is probably getting men to understand they can't wait forever.