do you think that it's possible to have a sensible conversation about awareness re falling fertility in the light of the other thread....

[Heathcliffscathy]

sorry about the humungous thread title...

but do you think we could talk about the question of putting off career to have babies/being aware of falling fertility as you age without resort to handbags at dawn?

i know it is a terribly emotional thing for all of us (me included massively). but is there room for discussing whether there should be a cultural seachange back to having your children younger...to avoid the pain and heartache of waiting til you're in your forties to start and struggling?

All of my friends who have children, had them in their thirties. To me this seems normal. If you don't finish full-time education until somewhere between 22 and 25, then you have to do somewhere between 2 and 5 years building up skills in your chosen profession, then it's pretty difficult to have children before then, isn't it?

This sort of pattern stems from the belief/desire/conditioning that financial security and stability are necessary for children.

I wouldn't feel comfortable being financially dependent on anyone else frankly. It doesn't seem sensible in an environment where close to 50% of marriages end up in divorce.

Have to say that the fertility issues I faced through having children later (but not ridiculously late) were unexpected. But it all worked out.

There are so many things to say about this.

Further down the thread I noticed dinosaur suggesting that having children young might be a good idea and carrying on working - a la Xenia.

Which is a thoroughly good idea because you do have more energy and stuff in your early twenties. It's just difficult to have the sort of career that can fund housing and childcare at that stage.

"21% of births are to women over the age of 35 now I see, that is incredible."

how does that equate with fertility rates "falling off a cliff" after the age of 35?

I don't think it is true that women having babies over the age of 40 are the exception, before contraception it was very common. There are loads of women on here who have got pregnant very easily, and lots by mistake, over the age of 40 and I am one of them.

It is only a problem to leave it late if you have fertility problems - and the only way to avoid that risk is to have them early but for lots of women it isn't a case of putting it off for career/money/lifestyle reasons but simply not meeting the right man until your late 30s.

It seems to me that there is a 3 month window between getting pregnant too early in life and leaving it too late. With the former you are considered foolish for not having a decent career (with reliable income and a house) and with the latter you should have thought about fertility while you were climbing the greasy pole. Apparently.

Fertility rates really do drop off a cliff - as an example, below are the pregnancy rates for IVF and ICSI treatment at the (wonderful) clinic who helped us concieve DC2.

I had DD when we were living in Shanghai. I was 35 when I got pregnant, and literally the first thing my obstetrician said to me at my first appointment was "Why did you wait so long to get pregnant?"

It was actually quite noticeable at the maternity hospital: the local Chinese mums were in their 20s and the sprinkling of Western expat mums were all in our mid-30s. And this is in a country where people aren't generally allowed to have more than one child, so it's not like women are planning for a huge brood. I certainly think there's a cultural element to it.

A doctor friend once said to me that "my Uncle Bob" was a real public health enemy. Many times he told a patient to stop smoking, the patient would say oh but my Uncle Bob smoked like a chimney from the age of 14 and lived until he was 103. Maybe it's the same with the woman we all know who managed to have a baby at 45. Like Uncle Bob, she really is the exception.

Interesting discussion. I see there are several people commenting that one might not meet the right person (with whom to have babies) until one is in the 30's. (Ouch, that's stilted. ) But our mothers and grandmothers generally found the right person much younger, and their generations had much better marital survival rates* too. Are women too fussy these days?

My own history - met DH at 21 (he was 24), married at 22/25, conceived DS1 scarily quickly at 24/27, DS2 at 27/30 after a couple of months ttc. We're celebrating our Silver Wedding Anniversary later this year.

*I realise that it's much easier to get a divorce these days, and also much more socially acceptable, so a direct comparison of relationship-failure is impossible.

Lissya, going back to your point earlier about needing to work in your twenties to have a career to go back to, I think that can depend very much on your chosen career but don't agree at all that it's a given.

I didn't move into my current career until I was well into my thirties and long after my last child was born. I know it's only anecdotal, but many of the women, and men, I know have established new careers in their thirties, both with and without family issues influencing their decision. There is no guarantee that the profession you enter in your early twenties is the one you'll stay in.

Working hard through your twenties and early thirties and then establishing a family is one route, but it's not the only one. Assuming that not establishing a career in your twenties means you won't have one is simply inaccurate IME.

I had my children at 28, 30, 34 and 37. I''m not sure if I would like to have any more children but my age (38) is definitely a big factor against it, both in terms of whether I actually could conceive again, and in terms of making the decision to ttc.

Like Spiggy, I went to a girls' school where we were encouraged to be ambitious in our careers. When we had careers discussions there was never any mention of fitting it around a family and I certainly didn't think about children when I was making career decisions. I went on a become a solicitor and qualified when I was 26. I had my 1st DC 2 years later, worked pt for a few years (after the first 2 children) and haven't worked for the last 5 years. I liked being a solicitor but it seems a bit ridiculous to undertake all that training for the sake of a 2-year career. If I was doing it again I'd get the best degree possible, then go straight into a career for a few years before having children earlier.

what a great discussion - have just read all 8 pages and fantastic that it has got this far with no nastiness! Re the 'surely everyone must know about plummeting fertility after 35' issue. I think we become very very aware of this when approaching, or past that age but before that there is a real danger it isn't raised or, more likely, heard in the appropriate forums and at the right time to reach a younger audience. Certainly for me, the first I heard was from my doc at 33 when I mentioned we'd been ttc for over a year. I was surprised she took me so seriously and immediately referred me to a fertility clinic. Had fully expected her to say 'give it another year'.
Another thing I just wanted to raise was the issue of grandparents. If someone had pointed out how much more able they would be to support and help out if they are younger, that might have influenced me earlier. My parents were mid 30's when they had me and looking after my kids for a night exhausts them, despite the fact they are in good health, now they are in their mid 70's. It will be the same, or worse for me, if my kids leave it as late as I did.

had to give up reading on page 3 as I need to get back to bed. Its 4.20 here 9scuse typing)

I wonder also if people think about the age they want to start having childrenbut forget about the age they will be when they finish having children
for example I have four from getting pregnant with dc1 to getting pg with dc4 has been 6 years and I hasd all mine close together.
Having a baby at 39 might not seem too troublesome but if you want a large family for example you'll probably be at least 45 or so. Its a big difference in fertility rates between those two ages.

(I was another who gt looked at oddly for choosing to start early, like I had let my sisters down)

I suppose many women do stick their head in the sand a bit but all in all I do believe that it is just more the circumstances that life throws at you. I had always thought I would have children in my 20's. Married ex-H at 21 and at 25 got off the pill and started talking about babies. Got very rude awakening as H had done a turnaround on his ideas about fatherhood. That, combined with other issues (he really was a cad in numerous ways) led to divorce at age 26.

then there was the bipolar on-again/off-again partner of 6 years

then about 2 years of therapy to sort out why I seemed to be attracted to these kinds of men

THEN I met dh. I was by now 34, we dated a year and a half before tying the knot, started talking about ttc 6 months later, had ds1 at 38 and ds2 at age 41. Certainly not at all the way I had envisioned parenthood...

But I am very glad that I didn't have children with ex-h or ex-p so I guess this is the way it was supposed to be.

que sera, sera

Someone else, on a different thread, mentioned that good contraception was as much a bane as a boon - because women can now put off the decision until it's too late. For previous generations that "choice" didn't really exist.

I think there is a real difficulty in communicating to women just how much they ideally need to achieve in their 20s without putting massive pressure on them. Basically you need to get qualified, get a career on track, find a life partner, buy a property and start your family: all your major life decisions. Before you are 30. Crikey!

I consider myself fairly intelligent...

But when none of your peers has children, no one at work has children, no one even discusses children and your own mother had you at 45, fertility is just not something in your headspace, is it?

Similarly, I am now fairly obsessed about education and read about it voraciously. When I was 30 I couldn't have given a flying f*. If someone had told me that I should be looking to live in the catchment area of a good school then I'd have thought they were barking... and very uninteresting.

Agree with fircone - I think many people in their 20s just don't consider fertility, good schools etc etc. I know I was 'too busy' working hard and going out all the time, even once DH and I got together.

And I think, like drinking/smoking/your drug of choice, the risk of infertility when you DO decide to start trying (in your mid or later 30s) just doesn't seem real. Sure, some people have problems but you'll be ok won't you? Even if you know logically about the risks it might not make that huge an impact - or you push it to the back of your mind.

I never realised women planned things like this till I came onto mumsnet

I had my kids in my 20s (first one unplanned, wasn't married, second one a bit more so ) and have gone on with my career. There is not one other woman at work with children and most are in their 30s.

For them, it hasn't been a conscious decision not to have children. They haven't had stable boyfriends till now and now they are thinking of trying to have children.

As someone else said, it's about your own personal circumstances.

Sure, you can tell your children that they need to keep an eye on their fertility, but if they don't meet the right man (and let's face it, nowadays, most people aren't settling down till their mid 30s), then there's nothing you can do.

I think there is a LOT of press about falling fertility and that warning issued the other day. I think a lot of people are aware of the problems. But if your life circumstances are not right for children, however old you are, then there isn't much you can do!

Meeting the right man isn't entirely up to luck, though. If you want to "meet the right man" ie are in the mindset to settle down, you probably will . It's like a buying a house - the particulars of your dream home aren't going to pop through your letter box one morning, along with the mortgage applications forms, are they?