just need to moan

[Rkayne]

Just need to have a moan and thought this was a good place to do it. I have a cleaner who comes twice a week. I know it's a luxury but with a toddler, another one on the way and working 25 hours a week I find it's a luxury I really can't cope without. She's been with me for over a year now and when I hired her I explained that I almost didn't care how well she cleaned the house as long as she was reliable. I need someone who's going to show up when they say they're going to. Period.

Unfortunately for the last for months it's been one thing after another for her. Her husband hurt his hand and she had to look after him for a couple of weeks then she was sick off and on (nothing serious really) then her dad passed away, now her mom needs some looking after. Now I know this must all have been very hard for her, and it seems really trivial to complain about having dirty floors by comparison. But she's let me down almost a dozen times in the last 4 months.

I really don't want to get someone new but I want her to treat this like a real job rather than just thinking she can cancel on me whenver she feels like. So I tried explaining to her that even though I know she's had a hard time lately I really rely on her. But she just got angry and said if I didn't feel she was reliable maybe I should get someone else. So of course then I felt like a complete bitch and had to back down and say, no of course not.

But it's so frustrating. I'm working hard during the day, I'm exhausted anyway from being 6 1/2 months pregnant adn don't have the time or the energy to do all the cleaning. But likewise, I can't let my 2 year old sit and play on dirty floors.

I know it's not really a big deal - I'm probably just tired and emotional from being pregnant. Maybe I'll take the afternoon off adn go have a bubble bath adn a little cry.

thanks for listening. :-)

Message withdrawn

I agree, you have been supportive and kind but ultimately it's a professional relationship, or business arrangement which she has failed in dismally.She is mucking you about I think - you will have to find another cleaner.It sounds harsh, maybe you could get your hubby to tell her, or else write a kind but firm letter.

We had the same problem with our old cleaner. In the end we just said (or rather DH did!) that we didn't need her any more and left it at that.

I agree with the others. It seems that you've tried to be understanding but ultimately it is a business relationship and if she can't keep her side of the bargain then don't feel guilty about letting her go. You could say (even if only to yourself) that you'll see how she gets on for, say, the next 2-4 weeks but you can't let it go on much longer, especially being pregnant.
In an office situation, a manager might be sympathetic as to what's going on in one's personal life but he/she would still expect some kind of reliability.

RKayne> I kind of agree with susanita, give her a little while longer to see if things improve. This talking to may well have given her some food for thought and you may find she pulls her socks up, escpecially if you previously had a good relationship and she sees that you have been thoughtful of her current circumstances. She has gone through a tough time, and may still be doing so if she's having to look after her Mum after their recent bereavement.

I know you need to think of your own needs first, but could you possible give her another chance, or explain to her once again that you understand what she is going through, but explain what you are going through too.

If it was an office environment there would also be lots of employment legislation that they would need to be guided by. She may have been entitled to some kind of compassionate leave. Yes it is a very male thing to feel more ready to sack people, but is that necessarily a good thing?

Try not to upset yourself too much, I'm sure if it doesn't work out, you'll find someone else to help.

I'm in the exact same position and I really ought to be taking my own advice ! - I would "let her go" BUT first find a replacement - that way you don't have to do all the work yourself and it'll releive the stressload.

I agree with SoupDragon - just say that you don't need her anymore - no need for confrontation then !!

great idea crystaltips - now practice what you preach!!!

Can't she recommend someone to fill in when she can't make it? My cleaner used to get a friend to cover if she was going away and I wasn't. That way, if it's a temporary blip, she'll be able to get back on track in a couple of months and you won't suffer in the meantime.

We all have bad patches - I think I've let a lot of people down in the past three years but I've been bereaved twice, discovered my daughter has an incurable illness for which palliative surgery failed, I've moved round the world and back, taken on new training, had my husband out of work for over ten months (in two patches), gone back to work myself then finished again, taken on new voluntary work, etc!

I hope I'd be understanding with someone's bad patches - I'd try to work it out. I think round here anyway, the cleaning mafia would blackball you if you were seen to get rid of someone in a way they felt was unfair.

Good luck.

A job's a job. It comes with responsibilities. Everyone does have hard times to get through but your cleaner sounds as if she is now just taking advantage.

I had a similar thing happen with a gardener and I came to the conclusion that underneath all the difficult/inconvenient things that were happening to her, she had really lost interest in her job.

She was once reliable but is no longer.

Don't spent time worrying about spilt milk - just find someone else. There is probably no point in telling her why, just a simple end of contract. But find someone else soon so you can look after yourself.

I'm in agreement with both lots of advice. On the one hand you need someone reliable and on the other you need to have some compassion.

One thing I find interesting is that when you first spoke to her she got quite defensive. This reaction is generally due to a guilty concsience(bad spelling sorry) but not always. However, based on what you said I'm inclined to think it is a guilty concsience and if that is the case then I would speak with her again and remind her that when she first started with you your priority was realiability.

Explain that you are very understanding of her situation but gently remind her that you also have your own situation to deal with (kids, husband, job and pregnancy) and that to make the relationship work there needs to be consideration from both sides. Ultimately you must always bear in mind that you are paying for a service and if that service is not up to the standard you require you have a duty to fix the problem.

I know from my job that a problem tackled when it first appears is always easier to resolve and get back on track as opposed to one that is left to fester.

Definitely talk with her again explaining clearly what you need, why you need it and when you need it. I would do this at the end of her shift and explain to her that you would like her to consider everything you have said and are happy for her to take the time to think this through. Tell her you look forward to seeing her when she is next due in and are more than happy to hear her side of the story so that you can work it out together.

I feel like I am rambling. One last point, if she gets defensive again, hear her out, wait for two breaths and then explain again that you would like her to think over what you have said and respond the next time she is due in. Don't keep going over the same ground and don't get defensive back at her. If she has time to think things over away from you and the house her response may be different and just what you need.

i'm in a similar situation at the moment. in fact, i'm just waiting for the ultimatum from her to be able to say, "well i'm sorry you feel that way but perhaps you're right and i should find someone else..."

i think you have been patient and understanding so far, however, imho, there is still probably some room to manoeuvre before letting her go.

some things to consider

• your own needs come first, you are not a bad person for wanting her to do the job you are paying her for, especially as you have a lot on at the moment.

• you both need to be happy with the arrangement or it won't work.

• can she find a replacement for you on the days she can't work, is there someone she knows or a member of her family who could help you if she can't because of personal commitments?

• if she can't come for one of the sessions would she be willing to make up some of the work in the other session?

• could you cancel one of her sessions in the week and get an agency to do it instead. agencies will usually undertake to find someone to cover if the usual person can't make it for some reason. that way you would be sure that you would at least get help once a week, and they might then also find you someone for the other session if your cleaner can't make it that day.

• could your dh or other family member give you more help.

i recommend you speak to her again soon and that you have a deadline in mind to resolve this situation, e.g. "i will give this four more weeks and then i will let her go/speak to an agency/find someone else..."

not sure if it will be a lot of help, but just in case it is, the way we are taught to give "difficult messages" at work goes something like this...

• Give positive feedback first, e.g. "you work hard and do a good job"
• Describe the behaviour that is causing the problem (e.g. missing sessions)
• Explain why it is a problem (the house is a mess, hygiene impacts to your toddler, you're too busy etc)
• Describe the behaviour you would like to see instead e.g. "i am sympathetic to your situation, as i have demonstrated, but i would like to be able to rely on you to come regularly"
• Invite comments on a solution
• In the face of an aggressive reaction, stay calm, and repeat the positives "i don't want to lose as you do a good job" but reinforce the message "but i am not happy with how things are now. can we work together to find a solution both of us can live with?"

i would also start checking out other sources of help (e.g. agencies, recommendations from friends etc.) so if the negotiations go pear-shaped you're not left in the lurch.

good luck with this, i know how frustrating it can be when the sources of help we rely on aren't there.

hth and you are feeling more cheerful soon

my post crossed with meanmum, agree give her a chance to think about it... good luck!

bossykate>I think you just described what they sometimes call in management..."The Shit Sandwich", praise ,shit, praise.

Just being flippant...that was excellent advice. ......But....

yes, bobbins, it is the shit sandwich. don't know what the "but" + grin combo is for? presumably to signal disapproval tempered with humour.

bk.......it was the "you are doing ever so well, BUT.....scenario.

You can predict you're about to get the shit sandwich when someone gives you good feedback

but .....there was no shit and piece of bread to come honest.

I'll shut up now

rkayne might find my comments useful in her situation. if not she is free to ignore them.

Oh dear....you've got me really wrong....I though it was really great advice...honest....

I was just taking the mick out of management methods...I've had to sit through courses about management methods is all...and I thought you must have done too.

Sorry for any crossed wiresxx

was just pointing out that now I recognise a shit sandwich when its flying towards me..andanticipatethecriticism...none was actually going to be directed to you bk.

My keyboard doesn't work still...so that may be onereason for my ineloquence and the misunderstanding.

A bad workman blameshis tools

apologies

Wow, I thought I was just getting this off my chest - never expected so much feedback! Thanks for all the support.. adn a few laughs. I feel much better.

I'm definitely going to try and talk to her again because I really don't want to let her go. (I have let other cleaners go in the past for this reason so I would do it if necessary. One woman wasn't just unreliable but a bit psycho and I had to scheme to get my key back before telling her! The other was an agency who even when a cleaner was off sick never managed to have sufficient backup. )

I'm going to tell her again that I know it's been a rough time for her and I do understand that her family comes first. But she also needs to understand that I rely on her and I'm expecting things to improve. I also want to explain that what upset me the most yesterday was that her mum had been staying with her all weekend so she could have phoned on Sunday or Monday to cancel instead of waiting until 10am on Tuesday (the time she's supposed to be at my house). That way my husband could have helped me clean in the evening rather than having to do it myself Tuesday afternoon as I had people coming round Tuesday night.

Assuming she responds positively to this conversation I'm willing to give her another chance and see how the next month or so goes.

Thanks again for all the support and advice!

(Oh,and a I do generally get a lot of support and help with dd from my MIL but she happened to be away this week.)

I would appreciate some feedback on a potential problem which is bears some similarity to RKayne's. Our Nanny will be leaving us at the end of July when she is made redundant. She took the news very badly and is making me feel pretty awful generally. Last week her father was found to have a shadow on his lung, having felt unwell since Christmas. Although not a smoker, the suspicion is that it is lung cancer and further tests this week will clarify this. Her family live less than 2 hours away by train and although she has a three day weekend every week, she tends to only go home every 6 - 8 weeks or so, chiefly because she is extremely careful with money and doesn't like paying the train fare.

By the time she leaves in July, she will have already used up her full 4 week holiday allowance and although she will obviously have only worked 7 months of the year and will be getting a redundancy payment, I don't intend to subtract her excess holidays from that sum. She has now asked for an extra 4 days paid leave both sides of Easter on the assumption that her father is ill. I don't have a problem with this as she has been with us a long time, has been very reliable and she is clearly upset. However it has become clear that if he is indeed ill, she is going to want to take another couple of weeks to stay at home. My problem with this is that she could actually spend 3 days a week with her family every week if she wanted to but it clearly suits her better to take a week at a time and then come back to London for 6 - 8 weeks as she normally does. We offered to pay her fare home this weekend but she rather gloomily replied that if she went home now, she really wouldn't want to return until after Easter.

Obviously I am jumping the gun here as there is no diagnosis but I just know that I am going to find it very difficult asking someone to go home Fri/Sat/Sun rather than taking whole weeks off when their father is ill. I cannot take any more time off work at all and nor can DH. My view is also no doubt coloured by the fact that when my father died a few years ago, I had no holiday left and was only entitled to one day's bereavement leave. As a result, I didn't see him before he died and didn't attend the funeral as my family live on the other side of the world.

So I guess my question is, how much extra paid leave should someone be given in this situation?

Bells I can understand how awkward this must be for you - I think women in general are much more considerate and empathetic (!) employers. Its easy to keep making allowances. But I guess you might have to remind yourself/herself that she is a professional and you are her employer and as Batters says, have a frank discussion where you come to an agreement on days off. Surely she has to compromise as well and use her time off more sensibly. Then make it clear that thats as far as you go and don't let her push it past the agreed lines. easy for me to say!

What does her contract say by the way? maybe you should show her how much you are compromising on that?

Could you suggest she works part of the extra paid leave she's asking for on a Friday or evening babysitting?

Thanks very much for the replies. You are right about needing to sit down and talk it over and I will force myself to do this if needs be and try and keep it professional. I am increasingly getting worried by the financial implications as I only get 6 weeks maternity pay and I can see that getting eaten up by additional child care costs. Lil, her contract just allows for 4 weeks paid annual leave and 2 weeks paid sick leave but nothing for compassionate/ bereavement leave.

Soupdragon, that's a good idea about the extra babysitting although I certainly wouldn't want her around on my precious Fridays!.

Bells2, how awful of your employers to only allow you 1 day leave when your father was dying, that's truly terrible. I would have told them to stick their job, but I know that's easier said than done.

In the case of your nanny, if it is lung cancer and he is dying (and it might be quick, might not) then I really don't blame her for wanting to be with him for as long as necessary. Like Batters says, she isn't going to care what you think really in these circumstances, especially as she's leaving and hey, she may not see her dad again so what does it matter what a soon-to-be-ex employer thinks? I know it would be dropping you in it though so I suppose I sympathise with both of you.

Is a compromise possible in the form of her leaving you earlier so she has no obligations to you and can be with her father and you getting a temp nanny until you finish work in July? This may be totally unrealistic if nannies are like gold dust etc. I think maybe it did suit her to do 2/3 days with her family before her dad was ill but if he is dying that really does change everything I think. Anyway, good luck with working it out and roll on July hey?