just need to moan

[Rkayne]

Just need to have a moan and thought this was a good place to do it. I have a cleaner who comes twice a week. I know it's a luxury but with a toddler, another one on the way and working 25 hours a week I find it's a luxury I really can't cope without. She's been with me for over a year now and when I hired her I explained that I almost didn't care how well she cleaned the house as long as she was reliable. I need someone who's going to show up when they say they're going to. Period.

Unfortunately for the last for months it's been one thing after another for her. Her husband hurt his hand and she had to look after him for a couple of weeks then she was sick off and on (nothing serious really) then her dad passed away, now her mom needs some looking after. Now I know this must all have been very hard for her, and it seems really trivial to complain about having dirty floors by comparison. But she's let me down almost a dozen times in the last 4 months.

I really don't want to get someone new but I want her to treat this like a real job rather than just thinking she can cancel on me whenver she feels like. So I tried explaining to her that even though I know she's had a hard time lately I really rely on her. But she just got angry and said if I didn't feel she was reliable maybe I should get someone else. So of course then I felt like a complete bitch and had to back down and say, no of course not.

But it's so frustrating. I'm working hard during the day, I'm exhausted anyway from being 6 1/2 months pregnant adn don't have the time or the energy to do all the cleaning. But likewise, I can't let my 2 year old sit and play on dirty floors.

I know it's not really a big deal - I'm probably just tired and emotional from being pregnant. Maybe I'll take the afternoon off adn go have a bubble bath adn a little cry.

thanks for listening. :-)

Bells, we were able to recruit a maternity nurse to help out from 6pm until midnight at very short notice, so you could probably decide on night-time help much nearer the time after you see what sort of baby you'll have.
I have 4 friends with 3+ children and they all have some help at some point during the week. It is not that they can't manage on their own but they all find that some help makes managing a whole lot easier. But I'm sure you'll get lots of great advice here from the Mums with 3+.

Yes I'm sure you're right Bugsy, I don't feel like committing to help ahead of time so it's nice to know it can be arranged quickly. The sort of help you outline Wiltshirelass sounds ideal on a longer term basis.

Bobbins!

Haven't read it all, but I agree with both the compassionate and hard advice here. Two faced, aren't I?! No advice to give really, just to say that I tried to get a cleaner last year when I was really bogged down. A friend of a friend came and was OK the first week, then seemed to not really want the job and did it half-heartedly or not at all. It felt really hopeless, so I sympathise.

I am sorry to bore on about this as I know that in the great scheme of things, Nanny problems are not exactly a priority. I am however feeling very upset and in need of some reassurance. Very sadly, our Nanny's father died a month or so ago. Over and top of the 2 weeks holiday she and us have taken this year, she has had 3 weeks off to deal with his passing. DH and I decided between ourselves that we would pay her for this time although of course we had to employ a temp nanny to provide cover, the cost of which added up to over £1,000. We did however decide not to give our Nanny a small cash amount that she normally has at the start of the month (£100) as she is leaving on the 24th and has had quite a lot of time off. She will of course be getting her full redundancy payment when she leaves next week.

As we were leaving for work this morning, she asked for her £100. I explained to her that as she was leaving on the 24th it wouldn’t be £100 anyway and that in all honesty, given the extra time she had had off (which I explained that I didn’t begrudge) we felt it was reasonable. She took great exception to this and told me that under law, you were entitled to a month off for bereavement at full pay. I explained to her that in the UK there was no such provision although the policy of most employers was 3 – 5 days. I explained that with the holidays, she had actually had 5 weeks off (against an entitlement of two) but she protested that as the 2 weeks annual leave had been taken at our discretion rather than hers, it shouldn't have come out of her entitlement.

We had actually asked her back in October to choose some holiday time for this year but by May she still hadn't done so and obviously we wanted to take a summer holiday. In any case, in her interview 4 years ago she told us that she had always taken her holiday when the family took theirs and that is basically what we have done in the past few years. Even stripping out our holidays, she is of course still well over her entitlement given she will only be employed for 7 months of the year.

Anyway, by not giving her the £100, she clearly now feels badly done by. I could of course just give it to her but she has always been paid and treated extremely well but has never acknowledged it so I would prefer not to. Any comments / experience on Nannies holidays would be gratefully appreciated.

Never employed a Nanny - wish I had one though!!

We only get one day off for bereavement where I work - although you can be given more at your line managers descretion.

I think you have been more than generous, especially considering she is getting redundancy - why are youpaying her this - was she contracted for a certain amount of time and you have stopped that early, surely nannies expect to finish at a certain time when the children startschool or you have anouther child for example - am shocked that they get all of this!! Not that they should not get it of course - just seems like I would have to earn at least twice what I do to actually make having a nanny viable!!

Is she foreign? Did she have to travel to her father's funeral? That can make a difference regarding the time a person has off paid. If she is foreign, does her country have different bereavement allowances?
Unfortunately I think there has been lack of clear communication here. She should have been told up front that this time off would affect her allowance. My gut reaction to reading your post is that she should have her £100, since it was not explicit to her that she would not receive it. You must have been happy with her up until now considering she has worked for you for 4 years. Don't know the ins and outs of nannies entitlements here, so could be way off the mark.

Bells, I think she is being unreasonable but to be fair, she's probably a bit mad if her father only died fairly recently. Maybe not, you know her best, just that I know I was loopy for a while back there when it happened to me. But anyway, if I've got this right she's had:

• 5 weeks holiday in the last working year (which will only be 7 months)
• 3 weeks of which have been paid compassionate leave and 2 weeks with you when presumably she was working? So maybe you shouldn't count them, in which case she's had 3 weeks which I should think is over the pro rata entitlement (if you agreed 4 weeks/year then she was presumably entitled to what? 2 and a bit weeks if she's only here for 7 months?). Even if you take a week out as compassionate and nothing to do with holidays then she's had 2 weeks.
• She's getting redundancy pay and she had a lot of notice from you
• She hadn't bothered to tell you when she wanted holiday despite your asking back in October and if the deal generally is that she takes her holiday when you do then she's being unreasonable IMO. What is she expecting? A month paid compassionate leave, 2 weeks holiday with you AND a month of holiday pay if her view is that she hasn't taken any? Hmm.

Bells, you sound like you've been a kind and compassionate employer and her bereavement, whilst very sad and not her fault, did cost you £1k in replacement fees PLUS her pay. So I think she's taking the piss now, quite frankly and you should remind her, in writing if you think it's appropriate, that she's had what she is legally entitled to and a lot more. Not long to go now though if you finish on the 24th. If she's got any sense she'll realise you've been kind, she's NOT hard done by and that if she wants to leave on a happy note she should shut up now. That's what I think anyway! Do you think it's just that he expectations were that she'd get the £100 and therefore since she hadn't had time to ponder it and work out a response she over reacted this morning? Cor, I'm being kind to her now though I suppose the same could be said for the 3 weeks off - if she honestly thought she was legally entitled to a months paid compassionate leave then I suppose she may also have thought she was entitled to have some holiday pay coming too.

She is British and lives 2 hours away by train. Unfortunately Mears she never really gave us the opportunity to discuss whether it would be paid or unpaid as she would just ring us the day before and tell us she wouldn't be in that week or the next day.

Although she has been with us for 4 years, I wouldn't say we have been happy with her. Her care of the children has been great but she has always made a point of never doing a single thing for us and has certainly never been grateful for all the fat bonuses, pay rises and presents she has been given. DH and I now very much wish we had replaced her after 18 months or so.

Boe, as she has worked for us for almost 4 continuous years, she is entitled to redundancy which we are happy to pay.

I know £100 sounds incredibly penny pinching but the real issue is that yet again, she has made us feel as though we are mean employers when the opposite is the case. Separately, according to the DTI website, employers have the right to choose the times when employees take holidays and I guess that in many professions, this isn't that unusual.

www - she certainly wasn't with us for those 2 weeks! She just took the holiday time at her family home as she has always done. Many many thanks for your comments. It is hideous having a confrontation with someone who is recently bereaved but I am just getting rather fed up that she has never acknowledged how well she has been treated.

Oh right Bells, she's completely out of order then IMO! Write it all down for her (if you can be bothered) showing her her legal entitlement vs what you've actually paid her/allowed her. I don't think she can really argue with that. And since she's leaving maybe you should conduct an appraisal/exit interview giving her some 360o feedback on her conduct (OK, I'm getting bitchy on your behalf now!), expectations and performance over the past 4 years

Are you making her redundant then? If she is leaving of her own accord she is not entitled to redundancy pay. She would be entitled to either 1 months pay or 1 week, dependant on what her notice period would need to be.
Putting her employment in my terms - I would have got paid compassionate leave if that was what was required, but not as long as 3 weeks. I would get 5 days but if I needed longer I would probably submit a sick line which means my time off would be paid. I would not assume that I would just get it.
I accrue holiday entitlement as I work throughout the year. There are restrictions regarding taking holidays, so it needs to be cleared by my manager. If I left employment prior to working the full year, I would have to pay back the holiday pay I got that I wasn't entitled to ( that actually did happen to me).
Therefore I have to agree she is being unreasonable. It probably needs to be clearly explained to her. However, be careful of saying there were aspects of her work you were unhappy with. Those issues should have been addressed at the time. As a union rep I know that managers try to pin issues on capability. That is unacceptable in employment practice unless the issue has been raised and dealt with at the time.
I knew I would have different thoughts once I read the other responses.

I am actually writing it all down in as nice and conciliatory way as I can. Thanks agains for listening - much appreciated.

Yes Mears, she is being made redundant next Thursday when I give up work in preparation for the arrival of my 3rd (yeehaa!!).

She obviously knew then that her job was not continuing so has therefore 'taken the pi**' really. I wuld spell out to her your generosity and explain that infact, she owes you money for going over her holiday entitlement !
See, I knew my gut reaction was because of not having the full facts. Sorry about that.

I'm a bit torn here.

On the one hand you sound like a more than generous and sympathetic employer. Given the amount of notice she has had I am surprised that she is entitled to so much redundancy and benefits - the 3 weeks paid compassionate leave she has just had is almost certainly more generous than most employers would offer and, thinking of factories for example, many impose holiday periods via shut downs in the summer or over Christmas. I suppose it is too late in the day to be worthwhile asking her to do extra in lieu.

On the other hand, she may well not be thinking straight but, more probably, she had already spent the £100 in her mind, and if it had not been the agreement previously to grant it at discretion or on a prorata basis for the last incomplete month, then I would agree with Mears that it is difficult to do so now. Does she have any outstanding bills with you (phone etc) such that you could withhold a sum pending their payment ?

Hope you manage to resolve this amicably and fairly.

Sorry to hear your ongoing traumas with your nanny Bells. It is such a shame that after all this time with you, she seems determined to leave on a sour note. She probably isn't thinking in the most logical manner at the moment, so I definitely agree with the others that writing down her legal entitlements and what you have actually given her would be very beneficial.
I hope your blood pressure is vaguely within the normal range, given all this and your SIL too!

Yes Lizs, I went completely mad after my father's dad so I certainly understand what you mean about not thinking straight. We pay all her bills so there's nothing owing.

I think I will give her all the written out facts as well as a cheque for the £100 and say to her that if she really feels we have been unfair, then she should cash it.

I just hope that next week, I am able to give her her leaving present of a personalised Bridgewater platter inscribed with the words "to the world's best nanny" from our two children without smashing it over her head!.

hi bells, sorry to hear she is still giving you grief. give her the cheque and the platter with a big smile - inwardly you can be singing "ding dong the witch is dead" from the wizard of oz to make you feel better...

this makes me so mad! I guess I'm just nowhere near as generous & nice as you Bells, plus I've never had the good fortune to work for a generous & considerate employer.

My gut reaction is that she has grown accustomed over the 4 years to being treated like royality. I would be so pissed off with her complete lack of gratitude & total failure to recognise you have been more than generous to her. If she worked for the council she wouldn't be getting weeks & weeks paid leave, time off at the drop of a hat & then having the cheek to moan that you've decided not to give her some money. I'd be threatening her with court action to recoup the cost of the extra time off plus the temp nanny! Not really, but that's how mad I am. She seems determined to be unpleasant. I wouldn't be dishing out any cheques or pressies for that matter, but then I'm too chicken to employ anyone & it's all just wishful thinking.
I do seriously feel outraged on your behalf. I do think I would be inclined not to give anything else though, because she sounds so grasping & living in cloud cookoo land.

bells2 I will stick my neck out here and say it is hell being an employer. We employ two staff at our place oif work, they are paid considerably more than the going rate, get more weeks paid holiday than any I know, get paid time off for any reasonable request, get full pay when ill; over the years we have had mostly fantastic loyal staff but twice have had one who really takes the p*ss and is so hard to deal with because as an employer you want to be fair and have people who are happy in their work.
Seems so many people these days know their rights ( or think they do) that decent employers end up getting shafted.
Hope that wasn't rude.

bells, she is trying to make you feel guilty and over the 4 years she has taken the p* with you and your dh, even though I know from other messages that she has lots of good points and is a very efficient and professional carer of your children.

And you can't win now, because she is getting over her father's death. It's unfair and maddening but at least she is going. I agree that putting her terms and conditions in writing is best.

Agree with your proposal to say to your nanny, here's the cheque for £100.00 and also here's the list of your legal and contractual entitlements against what we've actually paid you. If you feel you're entitled to the £100.00 for this month, please cash the cheque. For once it puts her in the guilty corner, not you. And if this is the first time you have approached her like this, it will make her aware that you KNOW she is overstepping the mark. And that you have always known. And that she hasn't succeeded in making you feel guilty.

But from what you've said, I still think she'll cash the cheque - hey ho.

You are all so kind!. It just gets to me because DH and I have gone to ridiculous lengths to be generous and fair employers and we have been constantly been made to feel as though she is doing us a great favour in return by remaining in our employment. We are just not cut out for it.

I so agree with you Jasper on it being hell to being an employer, especially on a small scale where it all so personal. I feel so drained by the whole experience that I am determined to have no help at all with No.3 which is probably cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Anyway, I gave her the cheque and the stuff from the DTI which unsurprisingly demonstrated how generous we had been. And as today is "Day 5" to d day, nothing can stop the growing feeling of elation at the prospect of finally, ater 4 years of motherhood being in full control of my house and children.

Just caught up on this and agree that basically you have been exploited all along,and you know it, and you have been too nice to her for the sake of your children, and you are 100% right to feel incredibly cross with her, no matter how hard her current circumstances must be. Singing BK's song in your head and imagining walloping her (nanny, not poor BK) with a substantial piece of earthenware as you hand it over will make you very happy. And don't forget that the odds are that her next job will be with one of those families who really don't give their nannies a moment's mercy...she has been tremendously lucky up until now. Maybe the scales will fall from her eyes at some point in the future? Not that I am vindictive or anything.
I'm so glad you've only got five more days to go!

marina!