just need to moan

[Rkayne]

Just need to have a moan and thought this was a good place to do it. I have a cleaner who comes twice a week. I know it's a luxury but with a toddler, another one on the way and working 25 hours a week I find it's a luxury I really can't cope without. She's been with me for over a year now and when I hired her I explained that I almost didn't care how well she cleaned the house as long as she was reliable. I need someone who's going to show up when they say they're going to. Period.

Unfortunately for the last for months it's been one thing after another for her. Her husband hurt his hand and she had to look after him for a couple of weeks then she was sick off and on (nothing serious really) then her dad passed away, now her mom needs some looking after. Now I know this must all have been very hard for her, and it seems really trivial to complain about having dirty floors by comparison. But she's let me down almost a dozen times in the last 4 months.

I really don't want to get someone new but I want her to treat this like a real job rather than just thinking she can cancel on me whenver she feels like. So I tried explaining to her that even though I know she's had a hard time lately I really rely on her. But she just got angry and said if I didn't feel she was reliable maybe I should get someone else. So of course then I felt like a complete bitch and had to back down and say, no of course not.

But it's so frustrating. I'm working hard during the day, I'm exhausted anyway from being 6 1/2 months pregnant adn don't have the time or the energy to do all the cleaning. But likewise, I can't let my 2 year old sit and play on dirty floors.

I know it's not really a big deal - I'm probably just tired and emotional from being pregnant. Maybe I'll take the afternoon off adn go have a bubble bath adn a little cry.

thanks for listening. :-)

WWW, it is my deepest regret that I didn't tell them to stick their job. I obviously should have done but think I was in shock at the time and not thinking straight.

I would be more than happy for her to leave earlier if she wants to spend time with her Dad. That really wouldn't be a problem as I'm sure we could find someone to replace her at short notice. It is just the having to pay her a full salary as well as fund a replacement. Including taxes and NI and the fact that a temp would be more expensive, that would mean our total child care costs could rise to almost £1,000 a week which even for 2 weeks would be horrendous. Unfortunately we both leave the house at 6.45am so a nursery it out of the question.

I do feel mean about it all, I wish I was a large corporation and could tell her to go and take a month off on full pay.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to let her have any extra time off she might need to be with her dad, but explain that this has to be unpaid. This way she can spend the time with her family and you could still afford to get some temporary help. I now work for our family business but for many years I worked for big companies and this was pretty standard policy.

You could still offer to pay her for a couple of extra days around Easter but make it clear that a)if she needs more time off than that it will be unpaid and b)she needs to be as honest with you as possible about how much time off she really needs so you can make other arrangements if necessary.

oh no, bells, i bet you are absolutely longing for july!

excellent advice here. i agree with www and rkayne, consider either bringing forward her redundancy or asking her to take unpaid leave.

a couple more thoughts. my understanding is that it is a buyers' market for nannies atm, considering the number of layoffs in the city, so perhaps a temporary nanny might not be as expensive as you think.

also, what would the consequences be if you started working a 9 - 5 day? you are leaving anyway... would it really be worth their while making a big fuss and putting a lot of pressure on you? if they did you could probably get your gp to sign you off sick for stress anyway. i realise this is not a best case scenario...

the potential benefit of this approach for your situation is that it might open up other options in terms of childcare, e.g. nursery or childminder - only temporarily after all.

one final thing, obviously the best outcome for everyone is that your nanny's father turns out not to have cancer but a curable illness after all. when will you know one way or the other?

good luck

Am glad you feel that it would be reasonable for any extra leave beyond a week or so to be unpaid - that's a weight off my mind!. Unfortunately I have to speak at the morning meeting at 7.30am every day and our first publication goes out at 9.00 am and our last at 6.00pm. So I wouldn't be able to do my job in any shorter hours and it is these hours which would probably make a replacement Nanny so expensive. I have though thought about starting my maternity leave earlier on stress/ medical grounds so I'll keep it in mind. And BK, you are definitely right about the best outcome, I really do very much hope for her sake that he is not seriously ill.

Thanks again - it is so good to be able to get people's honest opinions on things like this without thinking people are only telling you what you want to hear.

just to reiterate bossykate - i have just hired a new nanny by putting an ad in simply childcare and have had loads and loads of calls. I actually hired the second person i interviewed. So I don't think you'll have any problem getting a replacement. Can't add anything to the excellent advice on your moral dilemna though...

Bells, so sorry to hear of this dilemma - agree with others who have said that maybe this extra leave should be unpaid. I think you sound an incredibly understanding and thoughtful employer - and as you say, she has always enjoyed the luxury and flexibility of a three-day weekend.
My own employer (public sector but in the same location as you) would pay a week, then you'd be expected to take it as unpaid or annual leave. This would only apply if the person was a) seriously ill and not expected to live and b) if the person was a close relative or partner (child/parent). Adult siblings apparently excluded...
The other option for you at your work is surely to go sick on the grounds of stress, if the situation causes you to feel it is putting your health or that of the baby at risk. I am not advocating throwing a sicky...but if stress is making you ill in pregnancy, I thought you would not be compelled to start mat leave until 36 weeks.
Obviously I hope this turns out to be a scare for her father. Shadows on lungs can be things other than cancer. But at the risk of sounding really suspicious, her initial reaction to being made redundant makes me wonder that whatever the outcome of his tests, she has consciously or otherwise decided to take you for all she can until July. You might just want to be on your guard for that...Thinking of you. Not what you need frankly, is it? And the attitude is not what you deserve either.

You are so sweet Marina!. Feel happy now that a week on full pay is fair with perhaps a few half days here and there thrown in and anything on top of that being unpaid.

You are right about the attitude though - every morning and evening I get a few sarky comments about how her life is now in tatters, accompanied by pointed looks in my direction. She keeps going on and on about how old she is at 40 to be starting to look after young children again, seemingly oblivious that 40 isn't too far away for me and I'm actually having a baby!.

bells, you must be counting the days till july. hope you can work something out soon.

Don't want to be the voice of the nasty employer... but just to recap, you have given her her full paid 4 week holiday allocation even though she is only working 7 months of the year, she has 3 day weekends which she chooses not to take... SURELY it has to be cheaper for you (and easier administratively) if you say "sorry, can't let you have all of that additional time off, but I will pay for your train tickets to go and see your father for three days a week". I agree it will be sad if he is ill, but none of us have the luxury of chucking in our responsibilities if that happens. Of course, if he was being given 2 weeks or a month to live then you may take a different view, but he is probably at the beginning (or not even) of a long illness and she has a job and responsibilities to fulfill. Don't want to be brutal, but you are letting your emotions and guilt about making her redundant cloud your ability to see that she is taking you for a ride.
Interested to know what others think.

Bells2 - nothing constructive to say other than you are not being unreasonable.

Bells, - your nanny sounds really p*** off. I don't envy you. On the one hand you nanny faces certain redundancy and the possible death of her father. On the other hand, she has just a few months left of obligation to you. It's not hard to see where her priorities will lie. It's only natureal for her to put her family first. But it sounds to me as if she might be hoping for early redundancy, without any loss of pay.

I agree with those who suggest unpaid leave (and a temporary nanny) is a way out of this, especially considering your nanny has a three day weekend so could visit her father then if she chose to. You could cite the 'unpaid leave for dependents' arrangement that employees now have. By being firm now, you can always backtrack later, and pay her extra if you want to.

And when you have that dreaded talk with her, when it comes to discussing her taking extra leave, you could ask her (very nicely of course) if she has any ideas about who could look after your children when she is away? I am assuming she knows that you and your dh have got no leave entitlement left, and you have said elsewhere that she is really attached to your children, so she will hopefully not want their care to be disrupted too much. Putting the ball in her court for a minute might give her pause for thought and remind her that the problem isn't just hers, it is also yours. Then it might be easier to negotiate a workable time off/unpaid leave arrangement with her.

However, if you feel she is in effect abandoning you all, you could also casually mention something about her references and her reliabilty in the past.

Outright lie here..... there is a nanny glut, I think. She might have difficulty getting another job. Could you say that you know of a family who need a nanny like her, ie someone who is very, very reliable, and you'll see about passing on her details at the end of July 'if things continue to go smoothly' Not a good option unless you feel she is really, really, taking advantage of you - if so, a possible way to retain her loyalty to the end?

I'd go for offering her the way out now. Go home tongiht, tell her she can finish next Thursday, you'll bung her a week's pay on top of her redundancy payment and the leave she hasn't yet taken and not to worry about the children, you'll sort something out, you know how worried she must be feeling, you have been in a similar situation yourself etc. And if she really wants to she can finish tomorrow.

I suppose I feel like this because we travelled to NZ when DH's mum was diagnosed with terminal cancer. We planned to stay for two weeks and actually stayed two months. DH got no paid leave - he was a contractor - and ultimately the time he spent there made a big difference to the contract. We're fairly sure the time he had spent away made him first for the chop when the knives came out.

But even now, after all the unemployed times and the low times and the time we had on virtually no money (and still have!) we wouldn't go back and change a thing. Those days were so precious and nothing could ever buy them.

Good luck Bells2, whatever you do.

Bells, I agree with most everything that has been said. A week with pay is generous and I do like Sue's option also, if it turns out he has cancer. Just want you to know that not all shadows are bad. My lungs show something due to scar tissue that formed when I had pneumonia as a child. Hope it's something innocuous for her. I'm sure you'll be happy to see her go. Even though she's been great with the kids, she hasn't been so good with you, right? My sympathies on the whole situation. What dilemmas!

Rkayne, I'm all for getting a new cleaner. Say that she's right, you do feel you need to get someone else because of your situation (being pregnant with a toddler). But get someone else.

Hope it works out for both of you.

Just wanted to add Bells that you sound incredibly generous - you shouldn't for one minute feel guilty about the situation. - You have already been more than generous given that you have no contractual reason to give paid time off ( and let's face it you are not a company and just do not have the capacity to be magnanimous and do more than the contract). Yes she is facing a horrible situation - but I honestly can't see why YOU should end up paying for it!

Bells, I know you are just trying to sound out opinion for now. It won't be until your nanny's father has a diagnosis that you can decide for sure on what to offer her.

Re-reading my message, the ending sounds a bit harsh. Of course I wouldn't suggest you put extra stress on your nanny if her father is diagnosed with lung cancer. I think if that's the case, you may well have to offer to let her leave quickly, as suew says. If she is very upset and deeply resentful about working out her notice (even with extra leave) her professional facade could slip and she won't be up to looking after your children as you'd want her to, so in a way you'd have no choice.

However, if she leaves 2 or 3 months early, will you still have to give her full pay for all that that time? That's an awful lot of money to find, especially if you are also having to employ a temporary nanny. I don't know how you solve that problem. I suppose you could make some saving by just paying her holiday entitlement for 7 months, not the full year, but even so, you would still be paying out a lot.

Also, I am assuming she will be honest with you about her father. Do you think she would tell you if his condition was diagnosed as not life threatening after all?

bells just one more voice telling you how generous you are being. I have to say that I feel she really is taking you for a ride -yes her Dad's ill, but if it really is that bad, and if she really is that concerned then why the hell isn't she going there every weekend - especially if you are offering to pay the train fare.

Hurrah!!! It's not cancer, they don't know what it is yet but it's not cancer. He is such a nice man that I am delighted for the whole family but also confess to being relieved for us. I am overwhelmed by all your kind responses - thanks so much.

I will be just soooo glad to no longer need to employ anyone in a few months time as I am just not cut out for it. Why is it that at work I am direct, confident and to the point while at home I'm a gibbering wreck, pathetically apologetic for being 2 minutes late with every minor request accompanied by blushes and "would you mind terribly if you have a moment blah blah blah". I wish I knew whether it was residual guilt at workinngor an innate discomfort with the whole domestic employee relationship.

Anyway I'm rambling. She still wants 4 days off (2 days either side of Easter) which I am sure is in order to make sure she can get a cheap train fare. I'm happy to pay her for these days on the basis that I can point to this as a sign of our generosity and goodwill should we get any more requests. Have made it clar to her that I cannot take any more holiday at all as like her, I am leaving in July. Thanks again.

Good news for all concerned!

That is very good news for him, for all his family and for you too. I think giving her that longer leave is just right - showing your relief too but drawing a line under any more time off.

Good news bells.

Bells, sorry to hear about your ongoing Nanny dilemas. I am glad that her father doesn't have cancer though.
IMO, you are an exceptionally generous employer. I would imagine alot of nannies would be biting limbs off to work for you and maybe part of the reason your nanny is so hacked off is because she realises her cushy number is up!!!
Just out of interest, when you give up work are you going to have any help or are you planning to go solo with three?

good news, bells. Roll on the summer.

Thankyou for your kind comments Bugsy. We probably have been over generous with pay and conditions but it's always been very important to both DH and me to treat people looking after our children as well as we can.

I just don't know what to do on the help front. DS will be at school from September and DD is extremely placid and easy to please so I am hoping it will be all ok, especially as we have a good cleaner. My only real concern is the lack of sleep. I have vaguely thought of an au pair but I guess I'm a bit worried as to how much help they are actually likely to be, especially given that I seem to have a complete inability to tell people what to do!. I may consider a childminder for DD one day a week I suppose if I can find a good one within walking distance. Any wise words from mothers of three gratefully appreciated.

in my experience it is incredibly easy to find part time help with the children if you keep the hours within school hours. There are lots of nice mothers with older children in school who'd love to do a few hours in the late mornings with a baby and small one a couple of mornings a week. Satisfies their broody instincts and gives them some extra cash.
I also feel that it is a real stress-buster to know that you have a guaranteed time every week where you can do what you want - run around doing errands, go to the gym, meet a friend sans enfants, get your haircut etc. I'd try and get someone from eg 10 - 1 (so you can avoid one lunch duty as well) once or even twice a week if you can afford it.