just something to share

[threeangels]

I know war has been a lot more on many minds lately. I found this sight and wanted to share it with anyone who is interested.

I also want to say that any mumsnetters who have any family members going to war along with everyone else in the world will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Are We Nearing the End Times?
Did you know all the signs Jesus said would signify His second coming are occurring in our time?
The Rev. Billy Graham, Pope John Paul II and numerous Orthodox Jewish rabbis have all said they believe that the coming of the Messiah is very near. Why? Because so many Bible prophecies are being fulfilled.

When Jesus' disciples asked what would signal His return, He gave them several signs to watch for. He also taught that the time immediately before His coming would be known as the "beginning of sorrows" (Matt. 24:8), which in English means the "onset of labor pains."

Jesus was saying the signs of His coming would start out as mild pangs spaced widely apart like human labor and then gradually become closer together and more intense, like the birth process, until this seven-year period of suffering and judgment would culminate in the coming of the Messiah.

The Signs
Consider the signs that Jesus said would be the prelude to His return and notice how they've begun to occur in our time:

False Christs The past few decades have witnessed a huge upsurge in charismatic leaders claiming to be Christ or the Jewish Messiah, including the Moonies' Rev. Sun Moon, the Buddhist Dalai Lama, the Hindu Krishnamurti, and the Bahais' Baha Ullah, to name a few. Collectively, their followers number in the u millions. . Jesus replied to them, "See that none misleads you; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many." Matt. 24:4,5
War War in the original Greek of Matthew 24 is ethnos, meaning ethnic or racial war. A recent editorial in Time magazine reported there are presently 67 wars being fought around the planet and most of them are ethnic wars, including the recent slaughter in Rwanda and Bosnia. According to the National Defense Council Foundation, conflicts around the globe have doubled since 1989. "... you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars..." Matt. 24:6,7
Famine The LA Times reported recently that more than one billion people suffer from serious malnutrition, exacerbated in the past months by worldwide drought. More than 35 million people living mostly in the southern states of Africa suffer from acute hunger and are threatened with imminent death. "There will be famines..." Matt. 24:7.
Pestilence The rate of infectious diseases has increased 58% since 1980, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. Diseases once considered conquered are now reappearing, sometimes in drug-resistant forms. AIDS has become a worldwide scourge, and viral diseases such as Ebola pose an international threat because of transcontinental flight. "There will be pestilences." Matt. 24:7.
Earthquakes The number of dangerous earthquakes measuring 6.0 or greater on the Richter scale has been steadily increasing since the 1950s when there were nine. In the 1960s, there were 13. In the 1970s, 51. In the 1980s, 86. In the 1990s more than100 such serious earthquakes have already been recorded, according to the LA Herald Examiner. "There will be...earthquakes in various places." Matt. 24:7.
The Seas and Waves Roaring The Associated Press reports that the most recently completed Atlantic hurricane season produced 11 hurricanes, 8 tropical storms, and $7.7 billion in damage. Serious flooding has also occurred recently in the U.S., Russia, Japan, Mexico, China, Europe, Korea, and the United Kingdom, according to Barron's. "There will be bewilderment at the roaring of the sea and waves." Luke 21:25.
Great Signs in the Heavens The 1994 comet Shoemaker-Levy 9, a string of 21 space rocks that slammed into Jupiter with the power of thousands of nuclear explosions, could be a heavenly sign. Jupiter is the mythological king of the planets and in Christian symbolism it is a representation of Christ. The 21 explosions are reminiscent of the 21 judgments that will befall Earth during the seven-year period that ushers in the coming of the Messiah, according to the Book of Revelation. The comet Hyakutake has recently lit up the night sky, and what promises to be the spectacular comet Hale-Bopp, first sighted in 1995, is scheduled to come nearest to our sun in the spring of 1997. "Great signs shall there be from heaven." Luke 21:11.
Violence Since 1960 violent crime has increased in the U.S. by 560%, according to FBI statistics, and the number of reported cases of child abuse in the U.S. has risen from 670,000 in 1976 to nearly 3 million in the 1990s. Other nations are experiencing similar dramatic increases in violent crime, reports the San Francisco Chronicle. "...as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mt. 24:37. ("And God said unto Noah, '...the earth is filled with violence...'" Gen. 6:13.)
Gospel Preached to the Whole World Pope John Paul II has traveled to 70-plus nations during his pontificate, preaching the gospel to millions. The Rev. Billy Graham recently conducted a week-long crusade from Costa Rica translated into every language on the planet and broadcast via satellite around the globe. With Communism's collapse, Christian radio and TV are now reaching into almost every nook and cranny of planet Earth. "...and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world and then the end shall come." Mt. 24:14.
All of the signs that Jesus said would precede His return seem to be occurring in our time.

Other Prophecies Fulfilled
Other prophecies relating to this seven-year period of judgment, coming from many parts of the Bible, have also begun to be fulfilled:

Israel reborn as a nation in 1948 (Ezek. 4:3-6, Lev. 26:18)
Israel surrounded by hostile Arab countries (Psalm 83:4-8)
Jerusalem inhabited by the Jews (Luke 21:24)
Israel negotiates a peace treaty with her enemies (Daniel 9:27)
Doomsday weapons threaten earth (Joel 2:3)
Ecological devastation occurs (Rev. 11:18)
The Roman Empire revives as the European Union (Daniel 2:40-44)
Heresies become widespread (II Thess. 2:3)
Russia rises as a military power (Ezek. 38:1-12)
A hole in the ozone layer develops (Rev. 16:8.9)
TV communications are global (Revelation 11:9,10)
Satanic and cultic activity arises (I Tim. 4:1)
Sub-dermal microchips for identification purposes proposed by the U.S. military (Rev. 13:16,17)
Massive increases in wealth occur (Jas. 5:3)
GATT and World Trade Organization become possible forerunners of a world government (Rev. 13:7)
Asia possesses resources for a 200-million-man army (Rev. 9:14-16)
The Euphrates River can be dried up (Rev. 16:12-v 14) and a military highway linking Asia to the Middle East is being completed (Rev. 9:14)
Knowledge vastly increases (Dan. 12:4)
Russian and Ethiopian Jews return to Israel (Jer. 23:7,8; Zeph. 3:10)
The Hebrew language is recovered (Zeph. 3:9)
Jerusalem is rebuilt in nine specific directions (Jer. 31:38-40)
Levites and priests train for Temple service (Ezek. 43:14,15)
Israel's rainfall increases dramatically (Joel 2:23) and the country becomes fertile and blossoms (Isa. 27:6)
Men become more selfish, arrogant, abusive, ungrateful, fierce and treacherous (II Tim. 3:2,3)
Where We Fit In
Referring to these signs, Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." (Luke 21:24-28).

If we are approaching that seven-year period that precedes the second coming of Christ - and all the signs indicate we are - the Bible tells us those years of judgment upon the earth will be accompanied by untold human suffering.

But believers in Christ who have sincerely placed their trust in Him can be certain of the redemption to which Jesus referred, for He promised His followers that "God has not destined us for wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

So where does that leave you? Are you one of God's children who's been called to believe in His Son but has rejected each invitation? Where are you going to spend the seven years of God's wrath? And the rest of eternity?

Jesus told us that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John. 3:16). But He went on to say that "...he who does not believe is already condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John. 3:18).

Is it too late for you to find salvation?
Not yet. God designed an "escape hatch" for us by offering His only Son to die a miserable death on a cross so that our sins could be blotted out in our Creator's sight and we could be reconciled to Him.

All we have to do is accept His Son as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. By doing this our loving Father promised that, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor heart imagined the wonderful things God has prepared for those who love Him" (1 Cor. 2:9).

Would you like to receive those "wonderful things" in the everlasting life Christ promised His followers? Do you want to know how to accept God's Son? It's simple. All you have to do is sincerely pray this prayer: "Lord Jesus, I know I'm a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that you died for my sins and I want to turn away from my wrongdoing. Right now I'm inviting you to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You, making You my Lord and Savior. Amen."

What Next?
If you prayed this and meant it, you need to start talking to God through prayer, reading the Scriptures daily to get to know God better, and find a church where Christians like you worship Christ and where the good news of the Bible is being preached.

Remember, you are now Christ's representative to a needy world that appears to be embarking upon the period of unimaginable suffering that precedes Christ's second coming. You can help lead others to the Truth you've discovered and enable them to avoid the agony to come. Don't put this off. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow may be too late. God bless you on your journey.

If you would like to pursue a more in-depth study of Bible prophecy, books by Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, Jack Van Impe, Peter LaLonde, and John Walvoord among others are available at most Christian bookstores.

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Other Christian Information Sites on the WWW:
ICL Net: Christian Literature on the Net
Bible Gateway
Christian Coalition Home Page
Jewish and Christian Links
Lions Den
Jack Van Impe Home Page
Zola Levitt Presents

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I'm not saying Jesus was a fraud - just that he was a great philosopher, but perhaps not the (literal) son of God. I know that the NT puports to contain direct quotes, but can you remember exactly what someone said even a year later, never mind 50 years later - even if what they said did change your life?

The miracles I don't know about - I'm going to risk being one of those people who annoy some of you Christians by saying that is what makes me an agnostic rather than an atheist.

Also I agree that there has been no-one quite like Jesus since, although several figures have come close - Ghandi in particular. Who knows what scriptures will be written about him in the next few years?

Great thread - only just got around to reading it as needed intellectual brain in gear (doesn't happen very often).
bloss - good analogy - God doesn't choose or reject us, we choose or reject him.
rhubarb - that's fantastic - I get a second chance - I can leave making a decision until Armageddon and I won't lose out - I hope I'm interpreting your post correctly beacuse that is a bit of a weight off my mind - I did worry about eternal damnation. And although I may be sounding rather tongue-in-cheek I do mean it.

Yours agnostically until Armageddon?

Rhubarb, would you mind letting me know exactly where in Revelation it talks about the dead being raised and given a second chance? I would very much like to read it for myself. Is it really as clear as that, or is it just someone's interpretation? Thanks.

Bloss - if my child was in that sea but still refused my help (because she's stubborn) surely I would be doing the absolutely good thing by saving her anyway. I don't understand why God still seems to need us to acknowledge him in order for you to be saved. It would be like me making a fantastic meal, seeing it be enjoyed by my daughter, but getting peed off and stamping my foot becasue she won't say she enjoyed it. Why does that matter? I still love her. Ok, not a great analogy, off the top of my head, but still it comes down to God seeming to be pretty babyish to me.

Mum2boy - isn't that the whole point, you want to believe so you (one, I should say, not getting personal) will accept the 'God moves in mysterious ways' answer. I didn't choose to ignore your 'explanation', I disagree with it. You've not explained anything, you've told me how you interpret things. And yes, if you were brought up as a Catholic you will have got that 'answer' a lot at school. I don't dispute for one minute the existence of Jesus but to state he was 'performing miracles' is obviously a matter of choosing to believe that.

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I liked your analogy too, Bloss, one of the best I've heard.
FWIW, I don't think God would go to the trouble of creating everything and everyone just to judge them and throw some away. I think we all go back to where we came from and become part of a bigger whole. Every facet of everyone is needed to make the great dance.

Sorry Bloss, just one last point re: homosexuality. How is it a vice? I can see from your other examples that someone may well be hurt but how so by 2 consenting adults who happen to be of the same sex?

Tinker, (here I go again) - I never said that God moves in mysterious ways. YOU said that. You said you hated it when people used it as a pat answer. What I said was that God doesn't necessarily do things the same way every time (which is fine - neither do we). In no way does that make me think "Oh well, I don't know the answer so I'd better say that God moves in mysterious ways". (By the way, I am not Catholic, and was not brought up hearing that phrase at all.)

I simply know from reading the bible and from all that I have learnt over the years, that people's experiences with God tend to be very unique and personal, because we are all very different and the way God deals with one person, may not necessarily be the way he deals with
someone else. So if Mary's speech wasn't taken away and John the Baptist's father's was, so what??? As Bloss said, she was a completely different person and her attitude may have been one of acceptance and belief - rather than unbelief - so God dealt with her differently.

There's a scripture in the bible that says "The wisdom of men is foolishness to God". In other words, with all of our knowledge and intelligence and rationale, we are still nowhere NEAR having the perfect knowledge and understanding that God has, so even the world's most brilliant person would still be ignorant and foolish in comparison to God. Which is why we question and argue and misunderstand everything, instead of just trusting what he says. In the end, it's up to each individual to either listen to him, or to reject him and go their own way.

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For the sake of completeness it's worth noting that not all christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. For a look at how different christian groups interpret the relevant bible passages take a look at Religious Tolerance's article on homosexuality in particular the section on liberal christianity's conclusions.

And for some reason that link didn't work! Try this !

bloss, i dont know where i got the idea from either! i was probably bouncing off someone elses post and misinterpreted it - but i do think many people think we do have to worship god. however what you said about his house - i agree with and thats what i tell my kids when we go to church and they act up " would you do that at home? well this is gods house and your being rude!"

rhuby! you so funny but i dont really see the need for a pope - or a hierarchy in the church. i agree THIS pope does some good - a bit like the queen smoothing things over etc. still for the good the queen does i dont believe in a monarchy ( dont start on this one everyone - think i will start another thread) the same applies with the pope - yes i agree he does good but i dont see the point in having a pope or bishops or canons - i think anything above a priest is just arsey and i wouldnt kiss anyones ring( that sounds so childishly rude am killing miself laffin) but you know what i mean

i am a christian and i dont believe its a sin - just for the record, i think its small minded not to accept other human beings and treat people the same. its not for me to judge - but god isnt that small minded - again rejecting the elequent arguments put forward here - i believe that if your a good person who leads a good life but as a woman prefers to have sex with another woman then the god i believe in wont judge you on your sexuality but you will go to heaven as you are a good person

the church also believes that contraception is wrong and i can assure you that if i had anymore children i would go insane and am not exagerating - i am more of a person that a baby making factory - the rythem method does not work.

these inconsistancies - the pope, the contraception issue , the churches stance on gay people. whatever people may argue after me on this thread - i reconcile myself becuase i am expressing my FAITH through an organised RELIGEON its the way i have been brought up and going to mass on a sunday and other catholic practises i feel comfertable practicing my faith - i wouldnt feel comfy changing churches - thats not to say other churches or religeons are wrong.

i exprss my faith this way - its important to understand the seperation. even if i dont to to church becuase sometimes i do despair of the catholic church and i do have periods where i dont go for a long time - i still have my faith, i still instill certain values into my children - and my kids go to a catholic school.

again i believe and i dont care what biblical proof you throw a me - my presonal belief system is that i am lucky and so much more forunate to have and belive in jesus.
i think living my life with jesus is my reward on earth , however i also believe good people ,despite their earthly convictions will go to heaven - but i will have had the joy of knowing god and jesus on earth

bloss, what I find disturbing about religion, and especially those who take the bible as literal truth is that you are basing a belief system in a flawed document. If you just take the new testament for example, of the four books of the apostles, only Mark is believed by biblical scholars to be an eye witness account. The others were written in the 300 years post death of Jesus, Matthew being the latest. It just makes no sense to base your entire belief system on what is essentially a list of stories cobbled together by a group of MEN who may or may not have had their own agendas to follow. Added to that you have the problem of translation. The bible you read has been through a minimum of three translations, from the original greek, to latin, to English, to a modern version of English. Annyone who speaks more than one language will tell you that there are inherent problems in translations as there are inevitably some concepts that cannot be translated directly, and meaning and preciseness is always lost in translation. You only have to look at the dead sea scrolls to see just how much the cannon has changed in the last 2000 years.

then you have the problem of how the bible came to be in it's current form. In the 300 years or so post the life of Jesus, the bible was a loose collection of writings, stories and parables. Around 300-400AD it was collated into it's current form by the church leaders. Now, what happened to those stories that were left out? Whose agenda was being followed here? Was it the church leaders who wanted to maintain a certain status quo? I know of at least one story, a parable involving a shepherd, that was left out. (Sorry, Religous Studies Degree, though I didn't major in Christianity). If you are dubious about this, what about The Aprocrapha. This can still be found in some older versions of the bible. So why was it abandoned? Is it just not the "Truth" any more?

It is a problem where tradition becomes absorbed into religion, simply because it's been around for so long that people accept it. An example is Muslims and the infamous veiling of women. The only reference in the Quran to veils is an exhortion to the prophet's wives to cover their breast. Yet somehow this idea has been picked up upon and extended to apply to all women to cover their hair. Yet if you ask a moslem, usually they will tell you that it is part of their religion. It is not, it's part of the tradition that has mutated into religion. This is where I think the homosexuality issue comes in. I've never found a reference to Jesus condemming it, only St Paul. Now as far as I can tell, Christians don't claim St Paul was divine, so why latch onto something a man has said and given it the same weight as if it were a divine utterance?

I'm with Tinker. Your god seems like some overgrown child - surprisingly like a lot of men. Maybe those who created god made him in their own image.

So slug, just out of interest, what do you base YOUR beleif system on? Because everyone has some kind of system to hang their lives on.

Re: the Dead getting a second chance, Rev 20:12-15. In it, Rev says the dead are judged according to what they have done, no particular religion is mentioned at all. However in Rev 9:20-21 it does talk about mankind who, even when confronted with the power of God, did not give up their evil ways.

Re: homosexuality. Matthew 18:11-12, I quote ".."This teaching does not apply to everyone, but only those to whom God has given it. For there are different reasons why men cannot marry: some, because they were born that way; others, because men made them that way; and others do not marry for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven. Let him who can accept this teaching do so."'

Re: Purgatory. When people die, we know as Catholics that it is not the end. What is not clear is what happens to them between their death, and their resurrection during the last days. Nowhere in the Bible is there mentioned a place named Purgatory. This was taught to answer the question of where the dead go. People have prayed to the dead for centuries, so it was thought that they could still see and hear the living, therefore they must be between the land of the living and the dead, it was the Catholic Church who coined the term Purgatory. But as it is not a Bible teaching, the Catholic faith is not centred around whether or not you believe it.

Slug, the Bible is meant to be inspired by God. If teachings were left out, it is because they are not considered to be God's teachings, perhaps they are just historical texts, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, or as you said, written for another purpose.
The writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were written late as the disciples themselves were illiterate, so they had to get someone else to write it down for them. These writings were kept secret for a long time for fear of being destroyed by the Jews or Romans. Paul was a good writer, and wrote extensively about his conversion and so on. Revelations were written by John about a series of visions he had. You either believe them or you don't. But historians cannot find any inaccuracy in the historical record of the Bible, everything happened when it said it did. The people who wrote the Bible are known, and can also be traced back as actual people and not made-up figures. But you can read the Bible all you like and know it inside and out, if you don't believe it will not make one iota of difference to you. And if your mind is closed to religion or faith in any form, then there is no point in anyone trying to change your mind for you.

Judetheobscure - lol! But you also get judged on what you have done, and I'm sure a rejection of Christ will be taken into account in that! But if you don't believe in Christ in the first place, well then just do good deeds, and maybe sometime in your life you will encounter faith. God is merciful and I'm sure everyone will have lots of chances, that's the way he works.

Rhuby, I love your faith! I do think the Church needs a 'head theologican' however, to keep all those errant priests in line! I also respect the way he does not bow down to society's norms and values, as must be tempting when Church numbers are dwindling, but he keeps true to his beliefs and values, and whether or not you agree with them, you have to respect him for that!

Sorry, I put Rhuby there when I should have said Custdy!

has threeangels really gone?
I feel bad that I criticised her post, but it was the sort of 'commercial Christian' tone of the stuff she quoted which I objected to, not her own philosophy/religion - or anyone else's for that matter.
Started an interesting debate though...

bloss you certainly know your stuff. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to simpletons like me in a way i can make sense of.

i agree with you about the pope rhuby in that we should have a catholic advocat to do all the political liaising, however i still dont think there shoudl be a hierarchy.

how does everyone interpret the matthew quote that rhuby posted - would just be interested to hear

susanmt, why does everyone HAVE to have a belief system? I don't find any logic in that.

Rhubarb, 2 issues. Firstly, how does that extract from Matthew apply to homosexuality? It could just as easily apply to someone who is attracted to babies or goats or has a physical disability.

Secondly, I find it slightly offensive that you dismiss me as closed minded. I was bought up a Catholic, tried various charasmatic sects that were popular amongst teenagers at the time, before studing religion at university. I don't consider that closed minded, I look at it as having taken a good hard look at religion and spirituality and concluded that it's all bollocks.

As for historical innacuracies in the bible, I never claimed there were any, I just dispute the interpretation of them. You may consider the story of Lazarus a story of Jesus raising someone from the dead, alternativly he could have been in a coma. Stranger things have happened.

To go back to Three Angels and her origional posting, I was listening to the radio this morning and a guy from Memphis was discussing George Bush. His comment was that many of those who support George Bush tend to be from the southern and rural states. Politley speaking, he said many of them tend to be the "less educated". What worried him was that they tend not to discuss issues, just take it for granted that as George W is a christian, they trust his judgement. He said the war is not televised very much where he was. People believed that George has god on his side and all will be well because obviously god is with them rather than the heathen moslems.

And if that isn't an argument for the abolition of religion, I don't know what is. It sure scares the s**t out of me!