Michael Jackson programme ..

[bundle]

..is on tonight, where he's being followed by Martin Bashir including around the infamous hanging the baby from the balcony incident (on Tonight..with Trevor MacDonald) - so don't forget to watch it should be a hoot
(I'm off out so I've just left an ansaphone message for dh to record it )

Moomin - Gavin's parents have gone spare over this! Apparently no-one at Granada asked their permission to interview Gavin, and as he is a minder, it was illegal to interview him without his parents consent. Bashir should have know that! Gavin's mum said MJ is the father Gavin never had, and she attributes the fact that Gavin only had months to live, and that was about 2 years ago, down to the fact that MJ has made him so happy. I dunno if it was the money she was after in their friendship, but I have no doubt that her sons life is more precious to her than that.

And as far as I could see, MJ didn't "dangle" his son over the balcony, he held him over for 5 seconds. Having seen my dh with our dd, I can safely say that it is the sort of thing my dh would do in all naivety! Treating children like rag dolls is a man thing I'm sure!

And for this defence of MJ, if he is out there I wouldn't mind a stay in Neverland myself! Oh and we could do with a new telly!

Oops - for 'minder' read 'minor'. Doh!

Interesting moral dilema - if your child only had months to live and you knew it would make them very happy to meet a suspected child abuser (MJ, Gary Glitter, Matthew Kelly etc), and this was perfectly easy to arrange - what would you do?

I wonder if he actually meets the parents of the children who stay at Neverland as this was not really covered. He said they only stay over with parental consent but do the children just say that they have it or do the parents actually meet him in person and chat about what the evening entails? I also wonder if he would allow his children to stay over at somebody with a shadow like the one he has over him??? (Matthew Kelly, Gary Glitter et al) His poor little kiddies though with those little eyes peeping out from the masks, and how about Blanket having to drink his milk with all that jiggling going on!

Parents used to be happy for their little girls to stay with GG or for GG to stay in their home. I remember one girl who waived her anonynimity to tell her story. She said her parents trusted him completely even while he was abusing her. I think we often feel we know famous people just because they appear in our living rooms so often on the TV etc, which makes people more trusting of them. People like Jonathan King are more than happy to use that to their advantage.

I'm sorry Rhubarb, I just can't believe you can watch that clip of him 'dangling' his baby over a balcony with a towel over it's head and not feel revolted. My dh does muck about and do daft things with my ds but would never dream of pulling a stunt like that!!

Just had a look on a previous thread regarding the 'dangling incident, and I'm sorry Rhubarb but in it you said that you thought it was disgusting and that he somebody should call social services. I haven't got it in for you - honest but as I said I just can't believe anyone can watch that and not be shocked

Nutjob, when I saw the original newspaper pictures, and the written description of what he had done with his baby son, I was disgusted. The media made out that he had whacked his son's leg on the balcony and 'threatened' to throw him to the crowds below, who all gasped in horror at his actions. When I actually saw the footage, the story was very different. His son did not whack his leg on the balcony, MJ never threatened to throw him to the crowds, he simply held him over the balcony for a couple of seconds and then pulled him in. The crowd hardly registered a reaction at all! When I then put it into context, i.e. what if it was an ordinary father holding his baby son over the balcony to show friends, it became less horrific to me and more like stupidity, like an over-excited father who does not think for a few seconds. When our dd was quite young, my dh used to pretend to throw her into the river. I would go nuts at him as I imagined her being dropped into the river, etc, but he was just being excitable with her.

I am not really a great defender of MJ's. But I am a great believer in not casting judgement over somebody we don't know. We only know what the media wants us to know, which is a point someone else made. We feel that we know these celebrities because we see so much of them, but in reality we don't know them at all. So whilst that is being used as an excuse to accuse MJ of being a paedophile, it could equally be used to protest his innocence.

Let's see if Gavin's mum takes this all the way shall we? I'd be really surprised if a release form hadn't been signed as it is the first thing you do when interviewing someone. Considering the subject matter I would be shocked if someone had overlooked this at the time - or that Granada's lawyers wouldn't have double checked that they had authorisation for an interview with a minor.
So I'll be interested to see just how far this complaint goes.

Rhubarb, did Michael Jackson really look like he was just being excitable with his baby like your dh is? I know what you mean about dads having fun with babies, but they do it lightly and look like they are enjoying it with them. MJ didnt look like that. He looked like he was doing it for the crowds, or for himself. Most men would not even think of doing that, would they??

Actually, I just cant get rid of that image of him trying to feed the baby. That is what has really turned me against him.

I'm sorry, "being excitable???" The poor baby was terrified. What happens next time he gets excited and kills the child, will you defend him then???? I don't believe that he is capable of caring for children. Look how they're being treated on a day-to-day basis, don't you think the social services would have something to say if one of us did that to our kids???

As someone has said before, how come those children are so accomodating with the whole masks thing? It isn't natural for children of that age to be so accepting of that kind of thing.

Did anyone read the article in the Sunday Times? That confirmed it for me. He's a dangerous nut. There have been children staying in his bedroom for years and most have been pre-pube boys. He may not be a paedophile, but he does a pretty damn good impression of one. As for the dangling and the jiggling with milk bottle, it made my blood run cold. As others have said, if it had been one of us we'd be locked up by now.

What about covering the baby's face? Babies HATE this, it frightens and panics them. Can't anyone tell him that? Can't he see it for himself? What's the bloody point anyway. It's a baby. It will look like a baby. Why one earth would you cover its poor little face - yet show it to that rapidly shrinking coterie shrieking baboons he likes to call his fans?

Oh well, I guess I shall have to bow out of this thread. I always see the best in people and am a firm believer of innocent until proven guilty. I don't know what makes you all qualified to judge someone based on bias media reports of them. Yes, he is incredibly stupid and crazy, so who is going to volunteer to take his kids away from him. Is that how we are to treat everyone who is 'different'? I don't think his kids are having the best of upbringings either, but I think that about a lot of other kids I see, either in the school where I work when the kids show up filthy, hair crawling with nits and bleeding feet because they are wearing shoes 2 sizes too small for them, or out and about when I see babies in buggies with no shoes or coat in freezing weather, or in my own family even. But none of these circumstances gives me the right to take their kids off them, I am not qualified to do that or to judge them.
I just think live and let live. I am sure MJ is being closely monitored by every government agency going, I trust them to have better judgements on this issue than I have, it's what they are paid for.

Fair play to you for having your own opinion Rhub, but we are not being led by the 'nose' by the media. We've seen it with our own eyes. The dangling and jiggling incident wasn't faked, it was really him and he was really doing it. And if that's what he's capable of when cameras are on him, imagine what he does with them when he's alone?
But I hope you are right and we are wrong. xx

Rhubarb - I do see your point, but as it goes I only suggested that social services should be sent in to investigate. I am quite sure that MJ's family is not being closely monitored by the authorities and it is that double standard that annoys me most.

You are right that we shouldn't make judgements based on hearsay and a TV programme, but just imagine how quickly a full investigation would be launched if an ordinary family was filmed holding babies over balconies / getting babies tied up in muslin etc. And as for any normal man who admitted to having unrelated children sleeping in their bed....

Rhubarb, you say you went nuts at your partner for pretending to throw your dd into the river...& recognise he was just being excitable - you probably wouldn't have done this yourself, or allow anyone you employed to look after her to treat her in that way. I wouldn't let Michael Jackson look after my dd - or anyone else's for that matter. in the interview he could easily have asked Bashir to film from behind baby Blanket's head while he took the bottle. he was very good at recognising the harm his own father had done during his childhood - beatings, bullying with words - but fails to see that his own odd behaviour could impact on his own children - and I know he believes he's trying to protect them. Neverland does look like a dream-come-true, especially to children but at least if you were invited there you could as an adult stand up for your own rights, unchaperoned children cannot.

Has anyone else received that rather sick MJ game doing the internet rounds? Ironic that I've ben sent the game as the documentary hasn't been shown here.

I'm not convinced that MJ is a paedophile. I personally think that he's mentally stuck in childhood to a certain degree and probably really sees having these boys stay over as an "innocent sleepover". I'm not basing this on any facts mind you except he had plastic surgery to give him a Peter Pan pointy nose and calls his ranch Neverland - I suspect he doesn't want to grow up. He doesn't seem creepy in the same way as GG and JK (and I know these sort of people don't have to look creepy). I have trouble thinking of him as anything other than a child TBH.

I do think he's not fit to be a parent though - he's clearly unstable and not capable of being responsible for their well-being. However, I don't think he'd do anything intentionally to hurt them - the balcony incident IMO was "excitement" and not a serious attempt to harm the child. I guess basically he's not grown up enough to be a parent!

Just my completely unfounded thoughts on the subject.

Soupdragon - totally agree with you ! He is mentally still a child, he has that wide eyed innocence and naivete of a child and he cannot really see what all the fuss is about ! A very sad case indeed.

Does anyone know if the kids have other carers (nanny's presumably) - if so at least he isn't a totally hands-on dad to three kids - but what a role model ?? Three more messed up people on the way !

Soupdragon, I agree with you that the dangling incident was excitement rather that a deliberate act to hurt his child. Howewer, that does not make what he did OK. The fact that he let his own excitement overtake his natural protective feelings for his child is worrying, and something I believe should at least be looked into.

Oh, I agree - I don't think he's responsible enough to look after children at all. The balcony incident seemed more like the sort of over enthusiasm you get from a child with their new sibling with no thought of the consequences or danger at all.

I'm curious Rhubarb. How come you were so hard on Jordan over her behaviour when pregnant and after the birth and yet you are happy to give the MJ the benefit of the doubt?. Just wondered as aren't perceptions of both based entirely on the media?

Just for the record I agree - I don't think MJ was trying to deliberately harm the child, just that he is far too irresponsible to be in the position of caring for children.

I feel I really have to defend myself. I have been a keen observer of Mumsnet for many months now, the tips and advice it gives on child-rearing have been of great help to me whilst raising my children. I particularly liked the Gina Ford threads, she is a wonderful woman!

Firstly, on account of allegations concerning children. I have never molested any child, the only thing I ever touched was Bubbles and I have since had counselling over that. The offspring we produced were given new identities in the UK and are apparently doing well in some famous Manchester band. But the shock therapy worked well with me and I have not had any chimp urges for a long time now.

The incident where I allegedly 'dangled' Blanket over the balcony were grossly exaggerated. I was merely trying to get his wind up!

As for my face, it is true that I have only had two operations on my nose. I have Barbara Cartland's make-up artist to thank for my good looks, not surgery. Bless her, she still looks good today in her crytogenic chamber!

I love my children greatly. In fact I was so concerned about their lack of a mother, that when they were newborns I hired a wet nurse to give them the best possible start in life. You may have heard of her? Her name is Jordan. A lot of people think she has had breast implants but that is not true, she is just forever breast-feeding! And her milk must be very good, for my three are full of energy! In fact Blanket said his first word not long ago, it sounded a bit like 'sherry', we laughed over that one!

So please take back your horrid accusations about me. I have had a hard childhood, and that horrible Bashir bloke has just made things worse for me! If you knew me like Uri Geller does, you would know how innocent, kind, generous, sweet, and loving I really am. Peace to you all, I love you England!