11th September

[Jbr]

Ok, I may as well be the one to say it, after all I don't usually run away from controversy.

If these attacks had happened in say China or Spain or any other country would they have got as much coverage as they did because America was the target.

A minute long silence is being planned now! The Government are going to be giving out "guidelines"!

www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,784376,00.html

Can I just say, much as I dread war, this isn't the end of the world. And I fully intend to enjoy my ds 1st birthday a week later. The deaths at the world trade centre have no more to do with him or me than, say Chernobyl or the Bhopal tragedy. Both far worse tragedies, with terrible and upsetting outcomes, but which don't stop me enjoying the innocent pleasures of life. Don't think about it, but have lots of fun on your baby's birthday.

Aloha, When I say we are living in the end times I dont mean the world is coming to an end at a given time and nonone is really suppose to know. Just God. I just mean that in the end times (days, months or years what ever God has planned the world is going to exp more horrible things then ever before. Our pastor preaches on this all the time so we can be ready spiritually.

Threeangels - I guess you're talking about the book of revelation. Doesn't it talk about it being like labour pains? But I think it is talking on a big time scale (for anyone who's panicking about the end of the world).

Musica - If you go to Yahoo and type in "signs of the end times in the bible" then click on #7 "Get Prepared for the End Times" it should help. Sorry I dont know how to paste this info on my post.

What concerns me about apocolyptic theology is that it says that God is intending these things to happen. As I believe in a God who doesn't inflict suffering I don't believe in this either, but I do believe that we could get ourselves into a state of self-anihilation where God intervenes to prevent any further suffering. I don't believe that this particular war will be the end of the world but is a symtom of where we are heading.

Well thanks for cheering me up ThreeAngels!!!!

Tillysmummy, don't feel bad about celebrating your daughter's birthday. On 12 Sept last year my friends and I had a pre-planned baby shower for my son (born 22/9). We are all Americans and three out of four of us still didn't know about some of our friends and relatives. We ended up having a good time and did celebrate the new baby's upcoming arrival. There was a small amount of discussion the night before about whether to still have it, but decided that a) we'd all like to see each other and b) not having it would feel like giving in. Anyway, it was right for us and definitely needed as a way to deal with it. Celebration of a birthday is a good thing, so go all out! I mean, as much as you want to. I know there's been a lot of discussion on what to do for a child's first birthday.

Tillysmummy- I don't mean to sound callous. Horrible things are happening to people all over the world right now. Yes, we should be concerned about other people, but IMO we also have a real duty to be happy and make other people's lives happier - particularly our children. Do please just have a great time on the day.

This is from The Observer today - how one Iraqi feels about America:

"Sarar Hareth Ibrahimi, 24, works as a translator in a Turkish company in Baghdad. She is passionate about America's treatment of Iraq and sees 9/11 as God's revenge.

'I turned on the television and saw something like a horror movie. I felt afraid when I saw it. This was something like a miracle, because America is a big country and nobody can interfere with it very easily.

'Iraq is the first country that suffers from America. So first of all I said this is God causing these things in revenge for what America is doing to people. They have made Iraq suffer for 10 years unjustly. And I think this is a message to the US to say, "Beware of the Arabs, they are strong and they are dangerous, so beware of them."

'I just want to ask them do they feel sorry for Arabs, especially Iraqis, when the Americans bomb them? Why should we feel sorry for Americans? They didn't feel sorry for us. We are all human beings.'"

Her God's revenge on America.....

Janh - I don't like the idea of anyone's god inflicting death and pain on innocents either, but, well I can kind of see this girl's point. The US (and Britain) has caused a lot of civilian casualties in Iraq and I think if I lived there I would be very pissed off about it too, especially as no-one seems to even acknowledge it, never mind show remorse. I'm not the kind of person to want to seek revenge, but I can see why many people from that region feel so strongly. More fights with Iraq will only produce more of the same, which is why I think it's such a bad idea.

Oh, Lucy, so can I, that's why I posted it. Civilians in Iraq are having a terrible time, partly from Saddam but more from the West.

Do any of you remember the song "God on Our Side"? It was a record by Manfred Mann (I think) in the 60s, but written by Bob Dylan, as an anti nuclear song:

"Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war."

I'm sure Saddam thinks God is on his side too.

Meant to say, you'd think we would have got past this stage by now. It would be a nice "turn the other cheek" gesture if some of the 9/11 donations could go towards a permanent disaster relief fund for Moslem countries.

right - sorry I misinterpreted that,jan.

Just feeling a little wound up after having a debate about this with an otherwise perfectly reasonable American (all "they" do this and "they" do that. Not much about what "we" do to "them" ).

Those lyrics are very apt.

Anyway for what it's worth there's an anti-war petition at www.PetitionOnline.com/cndstwc/ (sorry for some reason the system won't make that a proper link) - also just got an email about a demonstation in London on the 28th - details here , although the organisers have lumped it in with "freedom for Palestine", which I'm not sure is a good idea (not that I think it's not a just cause, just that some take it too far). I'd go if I wasn't in Spain.

JoAnne, are you American? You're spelling suggests so.

Anyway, when you said you aren't well versed in world affairs, why do you think that is?

America as a nation (though not obviously individual Americans) has been accused lots of times - prior to the events on 11th September - of being arrogant and insular.

I'm going to be the first to say this. At least I think I am.

Does this "war on terror" include the US Government finally stopping the funding of the IRA over there?

Jbr, a very good question, I felt very sorry for the people who have been affected by the 11th Sept, but, how many people have been killed or mamed by the IRA and where does most of their funding come from?

The war on Hussein will only in theory go ahead if the UN Council agrees to it. Of course Bush and saint tony will be spearheading the campaign.

My mom was just telling me that whoever is in charge of disributing the money (can't remember who she said) they have decided on giving husbands and wives $250,000 and $150,000 for each child. She was saying on this debating show that this one man was so irrate because he felt that the people who made more money in the building she get more money. He actually said why should someone who was a dishwasher get as much as a higher up person. The people couldnt beleive he said that with so much anger. This really makes me furious inside. What a greedy person. I agree what someone else said, Why shouldnt the person who made less get as much? Are they less important then the hightop. Thank God most victims dont feel this way.

Jbr, JoAnne did say that she was American and she was actually apologising for the fact that she wasn't well versed on world politics. I don't think she can be held to account for the rest of America. Let's not bring this debate down to a slagging off of America, our country is just as biased when it comes to world news at times. You cannot blame America for the actions of a handful of religious nutters. Remember that the American people do not want this war anymore than we do, unfortunately our leaders do not listen to their own people any more.

threeangels, that attitude is just awful. Apart from the fact that the 'dishwasher's' family will probably not have had any financial back up, everybody's family that was affected by this tragedy will never be the same and they all need the same help. That of course goes to victims of so many tragedies, many of which unfortunately don't even get recognised.

On a lighter note, Tillysmumy, I hope Tilly had a wonderful first birthday, and you all had a lovely time sharing the celebration of her birth.

You can separate the psyche, if that's the right word, from the individuals.

Thumper you are so right. Many other tragedies should have been recognised and given financial help. Just recently (cant remember where though) a bridge collasped while everyday traffic was crossing it. A large semi and many cars went over. They didnt even have a chance. Not anywhere near as many victims as other tragedies I know. I never followed up to see if they found all the bodies but the last I had heard was they were finding all kinds of baby items, carseats, clothes etc. Just another example of people losing loved ones tragically and never having any donations that I know of.

whilst i am sure most americans like us dont want war, they sure are brazen about stuf in chat rooms! you should give it a go, and ask then about the IRA situation. you will be outraged am sure.
with teh risk of bringing the conversation down (rhuby!!) why do the american politicians feel they can but into everyones affairs,
i was wonderin... like you do.... are the american nuclear weapons inspected does anyone know?

The US government does NOT fund the IRA (but US based individuals / organisations do. Of course US nuclear weapons are subject to UN inspections.

Threeangles - where was this? You see I never heard about that, which just goes to show that our press are just as biased on world events! If anything important had happened yesterday it would have been overshadowed by the commeration events which makes you cynically wonder what our politicians were up to yesterday.....

The fact is that the people of Iraq want their leader to stay in power, if there was an election tomorrow he would be voted in. We call ourselves a democracy yet we think we can just wade into other people's countries and sort out their politics for them. Britain pulled out of Iraq in 1932 but retained power over the Iraq Petroleum Company which was a conglomerate of UK, French and US interests. When Saddam Hussain came to power in 1979 he invaded Iran almost immediately and was backed by none other than the US, along with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Russia and France. Back then Saddam was seen as a 'friendly dictator' and we needed him as an ally in order to keep the oil flowing. Now he is seen as an enemy, Britain and the US want to oust him for another 'friendly dictator'. This war has very little to do with terror and everything to do with oil.