11th September

[Jbr]

Ok, I may as well be the one to say it, after all I don't usually run away from controversy.

If these attacks had happened in say China or Spain or any other country would they have got as much coverage as they did because America was the target.

A minute long silence is being planned now! The Government are going to be giving out "guidelines"!

www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,784376,00.html

Rhubarb - well said.

Are you referring to Zimbabwe and Mugabe? I think the problem there is that no Wesatern leader wants to be seen taking on a Black leader particularly given that country's history (i.e. Ian Smith). If Mugabe was white and the farmers were black, I bet western governments would be much more eager to wade in.

I feel quite sorry for the government in lots of these postings - I know they have lots of faults, but in this case, I feel they would be criticised no matter what they did. If they did nothing, they would be called callous, but suggesting a minute's silence is prescribing how we should remember it. I will personally remember for the rest of my life the horrific events, and on 11th September will remember and pray for the families of all who died that day.

I'm not one for politics, I lead a very shallow and insular life.

What bothers me about Bush/Iraq etc.... is the implications to me and my family - I have nightmares about missiles, nuclear war, etc.... it frightens me to death.

Re. September 11th, I feel so dreadfully sorry for all those families/friends who have lost a loved one through such a mindless terrible act. My heart goes out to you all.

Does anyone think that Bush is the biggest threat to this world? Not Mugabe or Saddam as they don't really have the capabilities. I also think that the American government have been responsible for more deaths than Iraq has. I don't want to sound anti-American, I have nothing against the people or the country, I just loathe the President!

Rhubarb - yes I agree. The US certainly has a more deadly arsenal than Saddam will ever have and Bush seems intent on using it no matter what the rest of the world does or says.

And they keep trying to justify themselves by going on about Churchill and Hitler. What about all the times in history where dialogue has prevented war? Oh yes, we can of course never prove those, so lets just keep banging on about the closest thing to a good/evil war the world has ever had and hope nobody notices. Isn't there an internet protocol somewhere to the effect that the first person to invoke Hitler in any argument automatically loses?

And the worst of it is that Bush shouldn't even be president. I'm not a big Blair fan, but when he stands next to Bush I almost feel proud.

well, actually robinw, we didn't end up giving blood, because a) they didn't actually need it as it turns out because there were very few wounded and b) they weren't interested in my blood as I had lived in the uk in 1980 and therefore might have cjd.
I used to give blood regularly in the states (way before mad cow), but had to stop as my blood pressure was too low and I kept passing out after giving the blood. At least I'm a registered organ donor.

SofiaAmes and Croppy - well put. I, personally, will never forget where I was when I first heard the news of 9/11 - or how I spent the rest of that day. The image of one person jumping from their office, holding what looked like a jacket above their head in an attempt at some desperate make-shift parachute, is permanently etched on my brain.

I understand the point you are making Jbr - but can you honestly say that - off the top of your head - you remember the date of the Tianemen (not sure about spelling) Square massacre? I can't - but again certain images will remain with me.

I have to say I don't get the Diana analogy aloha - the mass hysteria brought about by the death of one person was, IMO, very different to the (IMO) understandable reaction to 9/11. This was the biggest attack on the Western world outside of peace time. The fact that it seemingly came out of "nowhere" only added to the shock factor. 1000's were missing - presumed dead - people were hanging on to the, as it turned out, false hope that they would be found. At the same time our country went on to red alert - in the fear that there would be more attacks and that we could be next.For me, the horror of that far outweighs the death of some woman in a car crash. Secondly, so many people knew someone who died, either first or second hand, or someone who should have been there. EG: My brother's close friend worked in the towers but was made redundant the week before. My brother did not know that and spent many anxious hours trying to get through to the States. My b/f's husband lost several colleagues. These "links" bring the whole thing much closer to home.

As for the minutes silence - I don't find it offensive. Yeah, I know it's TB who's sorting it out - but if I suggested a time I don't think that many people would get to hear about it. Countless people find solace in this sort of organised rememberance - although personally I will be thinking about those who died throughout the day and not just at one specific, pre-ordained time. I will also be praying that neither the USA or it's enemies chose to mark the day in a less passive fashion.

SofiaAmes,

What a wonderful idea - rather than a minutes silence - those who are ready, willing and able should give blood instead - at least that is making a difference.

How would we get THAT message across

Rhubarb and Croppy, I so agree with you about Zimbabwe. I was also reading over the w/e that black Zimbabwaen (sp?) women are being systematically raped because their husbands dared to vote against Mugabwe - these are just ordinary working citizens, not politically-minded people - and his own people - if he can do that to his own, it's not surprising how he treated the white landowners.

Back to the WTC 9/11 issue, I think a minute's silence for the first anniversary of the atrocity is appropriate - it's just when the govt tells you to do something that gets your back up.

My comparison with Diana was that some people seemed desperate to be 'part' of 9/11. Sort of 'I went to NY once, so I feel this particularly'. Yes, I did feel for the people who died, some of whom were incredibly brave, but did we feel more for them because they were on TV? It's hard to feel the same way about anonymous victims dying of hunger where we can't see them. I suppose I also felt the charity thing was inappropriate because so much money was raised yet people didn't have their homes washed away in floods and were utterly without food etc, and I worried that the fund would take money away from other charities. I know it sounds so churlish to say any of this, but Bush really freaks me out with his desire to finish his Dad's business. I think he is really exploiting 9/11 by using it as an excuse to have his own little war. Also very disturbed by the imprisonment without trial that has happened since, both here and in the US.

aloha, no people didn't have their homes washed away by floods, they had them blown up! Thousands of people lived near the wtc. Most of them were homeless for many months and without water, electricity, gas, telephone and public transport for many more. Not to mention the 10's of thousands that worked in the wtc and surrounding buildings that lost their jobs. Yes, some of them were wealthy bond traders (being wealthy doesn't make you immune from suffering), but the vast majority were poor working people who couldn't afford to be jobless for any amount of time. Most of the businesses in the area and in fact in all of nyc were greatly affected by the immediate loss of trade and the long term loss of visitors to nyc. These people may not be starving Africans/Indians, but they and their families are certainly suffering as well and if the American people choose to help their own for a year (for whatever reasons...maybe it's purely for closure), I think it's strange to criticize them for that. You can keep sending your money to the African charities, no one is stopping you.

I am not a great fan of TB, but I certainly don't wish mass death or destruction on the english people because they elected him. The impression I get is that many Europeans feel that America somehow deserved to get attacked because they elected someone that the Europeans didn't like. Isn't that a bit like telling a woman that was raped that she brought it upon herself by "wearing the wrong clothes."

Anyway, obviously I feel very strongly about this, but i'm off to work now.

I do think that there is a vast difference between what happened to Princess Diana and the WTC coming down. I can remember watching it on t.v. and thinking that the world will never be the same again, and I don't think it will be. It's making us ask all sorts of questions to which we can't find answers, and it's terrifying to think about what could happen next.

The stories that came out of the WTC were of such great bravery, like the man who stayed with his disabled frind who couldn't get down the stairs, and all the firemen who went back in. It's because of this that I will want to mark the minute's silence.

I think that the reason that so many people felt the need to give money is because in this sort of situation we need to do something, and in the sort of society that we have that involves money - praying no longer fulfils the feeling that we are making a difference for many people. Having said that, as SofiaAmes says, lots of people were in need of this money.

With regards to Zimbabwe, it seems to me that all the stuff on our news about the white farmers (who are actually a relatively small part of the population) is playing right into Mugabwe's hands by making out that he is putting right the injustices of colonialism and hiding the way that he is ordering the rape and murder of his own people who dare to oppose him.

As I "know" someone on another board who lost her husband in the WTC on her daughter's 2nd birthday, 3 months pregnant with their 2nd child, I will be keeping the minutes silence.

What happened there is inconceivable - I still can't quite believe it. I would have felt the same had the same number of people died and the target been an office block in, say, China.

I do agree that the Americans (and I really mean just the government) don't seem to have learnt anything from this. They still seem to be interefering in other countries business with an arrogant "we know best" attitude.

SoupDragon

ionesmum, I think its worth pointing out that while the 3,000 farmers are a small part of the population, the seizuire of their land is a key cause of the famine which is affecting some 7m people. Interesting to see all the African journalists loudly applauding Mugabe yesterday at the summit.

Reading this thread really makes me feel sad since I live in America. It seems as if most everyone but not all have some type of bad feeling for the country in one way or another.

I havent really concentrated on all the thread but I have noticed that some really care what happened SofiaAmes as one example really understands what the people here have gone through and some still go through everyday of their lives. Im not saying there were not others in the thread she just stook out. Some of you not giving any names act as if your dont care much for what happened and thats the US' problem. No one from any place should die like that. What if you had a relative a mother, father brother,sister or even your own child killed in that horrible way. Many from other countries did lose someone they cherished. I feel 100% that everyone should greive in their own way on the time as they chose (refering to the moment of silence) but some of you are being so critical and rude about this idea. This is not something bad but of the good. I dont think we should even be saying anything negative about the thought. Many will be crying on the 1 year anniversary. Mainly the victims families. If you live in the US you will understand why so many wanted to give and help anyway they could that was the very least we could do to help those in need. Isnt that whats its all about helping others? The country came together from allover and really united. Now if it would just stay that way thats another story.

Please don't think that threeangels. Most British people share Sofia Ames's views rather than those of some of the contributors below. I for one am not going to take issue though, apart from anything else I wouldn't know where to start as their as so many inaccuracies and illogical comments. I will say that I find it bewildering that anbody could resent any money freely given to the families of the victims.

I agree about the funds given to the families. Everyone needs to remember that the victims did not ask and go around begging for this money. The country wanted to give from their own pockets. At least those that need the money for the future will have it. Losing a loved one and having the images in your mind on how they died for the rest of your life to me is the saddest part. Ill always remember the husband and wife who was ready to deliver their baby just about having to make the desicion to jump from the burning building or die in the flames.

threeangels, SofiaAmes is American too and both of you are bound to be more affected by the whole thing - when it's your own country and your own people being attacked it feels much worse.

It's not that people here don't sympathise with the victims but, for instance, if your country hadn't felt confident and impregnable then it would have had better airport security and maybe none of those guys would have got on the planes.

We do tend to perceive George Bush as a loose cannon - saying things like "either you are for us or for the terrorists", which is far too simple when you're talking about world politics - and, as SoupDragon says, he is still up there interfering - and having Tony Blair cosying up to him makes the UK more of a target.

There is also the question, this week, of the Kyoto agreement about reducing the use of fossil fuels, and America refusing to ratify it because Americans expect to be able to buy cheap fuel, drive big cars, run massive air-conditioning units all summer etc., whatever effect it has on the rest of the world. (Our regular gasoline costs $5 for a UK gallon - $4 for a US gallon. Most of that is tax. How much is yours? Would you use less if it cost $4? Would people vote for Bush if he did put that much tax on it?)

Most of us don't hate America or Americans but America does behave, in world terms, as if nobody else really matters much...

Threeangels, here in the U.K. we've had terrorism from the IRA and others for many years. That is why I am really saddened by the failure of people here to empathise with you at this time. The stories that came out of this tragedy are just dreadful; every one who died has family and loved ones. It might be perhaps that our minds cannot cope with murder on this scale. For example, we are all horrified by the idea of the Nigerian woman who may be stoned to death, but 3,000 people dying becomes a statistic. That's why it's important to remember the human stories of those who died, however painful it might be to contemplate them. Whist not being a fan of the Bush administration (nor our own) I am proud to have Americans as my friends and neighbours and I think that most British people feel the same.

Croppy, I agree entirely about the land clearances contributing to the African famine but our news coverage doesn't really mention that either. As you say, the African journalists clapped Mugabwe - it's still about colonialism as far as they are concerned. And the majority of nations around him won't help - if they do then their own people might fancy democracy too and they would lose their own power.

After seeing the King Rat Himself Blair on telly yesterday,, if I was to put down here in writing what I thought of the little squirt then I'd be banned for life! Who does he think he is?, thought the George Michael video of him and George Bush was hysterical and very to the point. Mr Bush seems to think HE is the United Nations and Tony as well, time to sit back and take note Mr Blair and Mr Bush, people will not be dictated to forever, they both are saying they will not be told anything by dictators, they are both as bad. I think Mr Blair need to look at his own doorstep first before sweeping other folks.

ThreeAngels, don't think that we British are insensitive to your plight, we are not. We too have had to put up with years of bombings and terrorist attacks so we may come across a little more matter-of-factly about it.

I wouldn't like to deny the American victims any of the donated money, but I do feel that it would have been a very good token gesture if the money was equally distributed between America and the Afghanistan victims who have lost just as much and just as many.

As many people here have said, the American people are not to blame for any terrorist attacks on their country, just as the British people are not to blame for the IRA attacks, but there are things our governments can do to limit the attacks, and I'm afraid that President Bush, with his "We know better than you" attitude is not helping anyone. Half the Americans did not even know where Afghanistan was, which is quite shocking since the country was being bombed in their name.

No-one here has said that the American people were to blame and this is mainly a sympathetic thread. Can we not say that we disagree with your government without causing offence to you? As it happens I will be thinking of the victims on Sept 11th, American as well as all the others who have died as a consequence of what happened on that day.

ThreeAngels, I wasn't going to join in here but I just want to say that all the Americans I've come across have been delighful people and I'm glad to have them as friends. Indeed, now my son is married to a Californian lass, we consider them family. Our friends in NY lost their firefighter friend in the tragedy. He was three weeks married and his wife gave birth three weeks after that.

WRT to the Kyoto agreement, Australia also refused to sign the agreement but I don't see condemnation of that country. And I understand from what I've read that just because the US hasn't signed up doesn't mean that the individual States aren't doing anything. California, for example has mandated a cut in greenhouse gas emissions and there is a booming US energy-efficiency industry, pioneered by the privatee sector, universities and national laboratories.

Maybe Bush isn't to everyone's liking but it isn't fair to tar an entire nation because of one man. I'm sure Americans (and Australians) are just as concerned about the environment as everyone else.

SueDonim, like you I've had good experiences with Americans, one of my best friends lives in California and all the people I met through her were delightful. the reason people finger-point at the States when it comes to emissions is the country as a whole is the world's biggest polluter, producing 25% of the world's carbon dioxide emissions. And nothing seems to be done about the whole car-culture,with petrol so cheap there are no incentives to behave any differently. I live in London and think very carefully before I use my car - for things I can't manage like supermarket shopping (I WILL get signed up to Tesco online soon, I promise)and tricky trips across town which involve complex tube/bus arrangements, and rejoice in the fact that my daughter's nursery has grass on the roof to insulate it...I suppose I'm an old hippy at heart